Who else could have aided Gondor?

[metropolis_part_one]

In 'The Council of Elrond' Boromir laments that "Only from Rohan now will any men ride to [Gondor] when we call". This perplexes me, as who else could possibly ride to their call? The Easterlings and Southrons are in league with Mordor, so what other kingdoms of men exist in Middle Earth? Surely the small collection of villages around Bree to the north do not constitute any kind of military power. So what "men" have been ignoring Gondor's call? There are the men of the Dale, but I wasn't aware that this was any kind of a 'kingdom', just a small settlement in the wild. And surely they don't ask for aid from the wildmen?
If Boromir doesn't only mean men, then what does he mean? He doesn't seem to know much if anything about Rivendell or the Elves.

[nobody]

Perhaps he meant that Arnor couldn't help because it had fallen long ago?

[Rider of Rohan]

Boromir might have been trying to stick it to everyone there. "Only Rohan will come to our aid you lazy bumpkins", or something like that. He could be thinking of the various tribes and towns in Dale and Rhovanion. They have come to Gondor in the past (they are where the Rohirrim come from). Other than that I don't know.

[lindil]

First off, Boromir, like Denethor viewed Gondor not only as the primary 'physical' resisitance to Sauron [though Rohan possibly had a more effective [if not larger fighting force], but also as the center of civilization. If one does not know about Lothlorien, this is probably rather uncontestable, but still myopic.

What help he may have hoped for is unclear, maybe on his trip to Rivendell, he began to get some inkiling of the remaining Northern Dunedain, and felt they should be more active instead of lurking in the wild. Aragorn it seems is essentially answering this implicit charge.

Also I think even though we do not hear towns spelled out, it is clear that there were far more Northmen/Woodmen/BEornings spread up and down the Vale of Anduin and in the East Bight of Mirkwood [that is a pretty massive chunk of missing forest anyhow!] and that though the level of organization was probably rather low, Gondor perhaps hoped something of a minor repeat of Riders from the North could happen again.

All rank speculation of course, we do not know how far Gondor had cast abroad for formal requests of help. Denethor seemed overly focused on what he could see with the Palantir, as opposed to what kind of alliances he could build with any Northern Woodmen.

[Gurthang]

"Only from Rohan now will any men ride to [Gondor] when we call"

He's seems to be saying that the ones that did answer the call before would not now. I don't know of any others Gondor has asked for help other than Arnor and the Rohirrim. In the case of the horse-lords, they came after hearing a general plea for help. Perhaps Denethor had sent out a similar plea, but this time no one came.

The only possible answer could have been from someone in Rohvanion, or the Vale of Anduin. There aren't that many places that men still dwell.

[Gil-numen]

The Northmen living east of Anduin also had to deal with easterlings, orcs, spiders, and last but not least, Dol Guldur.
They did not need to go to war; war acme to them.

-----------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

[doug*platypus]

Mablung and Damrod have similar gripes about the Southrons. They point out that at least part of Near Harad used to be loyal to Gondor, and they seem very peeved that all of the south and the east was now allied with Sauron.

I think Boromir's comment was largely out of frustration. He knew full well that there were many other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, Men, Elves and Dwarves at least, and was under the false impression that only Gondor and Rohan were fighting the Enemy. He and Denethor, and possible even Faramir (who is criticised by Sam for not letting others do their part in the war) knew nothing of the dangers that those behind them were in.

The Stewards of Gondor thought that they fought alone, and probably held to blame places such as Dale, Esgaroth, Bree, Rivendell and the Elves in general. Dunland could have been a possible ally as well, except they were dispossessed and alienated by Rohan and Gondor.

[Orophin]

I think that Boromir knows that Gondor's strength is slowly leaving them. I also think that he knows that the only ally that they have had a kept from the begining is Rohan. Through everything thay have been there for each other and they cannot expect that from anyone else so I think that he has an interesting point. Although there are lots of people in middle earth the only one's that have always been there are the Rohirrim so he trusts them.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Boromir never said "Gondor". His exact words were

But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help. Only from Rohan now will any men ride to us when we call.

I believe by "us", he doesn't mean Gondor, but rather the fighting force of Minas Tirith. He also mentions "much praise but little help". Little help can be taken to mean "no help", or not a lot of help. We find out later that Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthond, Anfalas, Lamedon, Ethir, Pinnaeth Gelin, and Dol Amroth come to Gondor's help, but their forces were "always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked". Thus, I think he's referring to those "Outlands" of Gondor. He does say "those who shelter behind us", and if Boromir's talking about the fighting force of Minas Tirith, that makes perfect sense.

[Knight_of_Dol Amroth]

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Boromir never said "Gondor". His exact words were



I believe by "us", he doesn't mean Gondor, but rather the fighting force of Minas Tirith. He also mentions "much praise but little help". Little help can be taken to mean "no help", or not a lot of help. We find out later that Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthond, Anfalas, Lamedon, Ethir, Pinnaeth Gelin, and Dol Amroth come to Gondor's help, but their forces were "always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked". Thus, I think he's referring to those "Outlands" of Gondor. He does say "those who shelter behind us", and if Boromir's talking about the fighting force of Minas Tirith, that makes perfect sense.

All of those places are parts of gondor so they would be obligated to at least send help to the front lines. Unlike Rohan or the rangers of the north or any of the people that helped in the war that didn't really have to.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

In addition to the men in the Vale of Anduin, Woodmen of Mirkwood and the men of Dale (which was a sizeable realm at the time of the War of the Ring), what about the men of Dorwinion ?

[Meneltarmacil]

Dorwinion was probably part of Rhovanion, a land of Easterlings which indeed had come to Gondor's aid in the past.

As such, I think Boromir is probably referring to them, although they had largely defected to Sauron at that point.

[Glorthelion]

Maybe the slaves of Mordor could have gone to Gondor's aid. (jokes)

The number of men who live in Gondor would have been more than enough to easily win the battle of Minas Tirith I think. If the lords have taken a gamble then 10,000 men would have gone to the aid of Minas Tirith. IMO Boromir was asking too much and underestimating the strength of Gondor despite being long in decline.

[Faramir Jones]

I always felt that Elrond could have at least sent Denethor regular intelligence reports, based on the information he picked up, even if he couldn't, like Rohan, send conventional military aid.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I always felt that Elrond could have at least sent Denethor regular intelligence reports, based on the information he picked up, even if he couldn't, like Rohan, send conventional military aid.

You mean after the Council of Elrond? Before then, Denethor didn't know much about Elrond or Imladris, beyond the names.

How would those reports have reached Denethor? And would they have been as useful and timely as what he gleaned from the palantir?

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You mean after the Council of Elrond? Before then, Denethor didn't know much about Elrond or Imladris, beyond the names.

How would those reports have reached Denethor? And would they have been as useful and timely as what he gleaned from the palantir?

Even before the Council, Elrond could have sent information. Rohan isn't that far away, and Saruman was still pretending to be an ally. A report could have been sent to the King of Rohan, with a second copy and a request to send that one on to the Steward.

Regarding the palantir, Denethor can't be using it all the time; and I'm sure that some things passed him by. We must remember that while the Arnor Stone would have been known to Elrond, he didn't necessarily know that Denethor was using it.

I'm just saying that while Elrond says a lot about his might being in wisdom not in weapons, it would have been common sense for him to regularly give valuable information to Gondor, the most effective foe of Sauron, and its ally, Rohan.

[Galadriel55]

There are a few point that must be considered here. Firstly, Elrond did not, as it seems is assumed here, know that Denethor posessed a palantir. This changes things up a bit.

Secondly, Elrond would have sent messages as much as Celeborn would have, ie he would not have. Well, possibly Elrond has more chance of that. Third Age Elves were estranged from Men (or, rather, the Men from the Elves), and there was little contact between them. Now Elrond, unlike Celeborn, welcomed travellers to Rivendell, and when he sent out scouts before the Fellowship started out he gave them messages for the rulers of the other lands - but to do so on a regular basis?

Moreover, Gondor and Rohan estranged themselves from Elves. Gondor once used to be "Elf-friendly", but looking at Boromir and Faramir's attitude they are not much better than Rohirrim now in their relationship with Elves.

And what kind of "valuable information" could he give? That the Nazgul are over Anduin? Duh. That there are dark things hiding in the wilderness around? Big deal, no news. That orcs are massing in the Misty Mountains? What use would that be to Gondor?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There are a few point that must be considered here. Firstly, Elrond did not, as it seems is assumed here, know that Denethor posessed a palantir. This changes things up a bit.

Actually... if there was anyone in Middle-earth who would have known that Denethor possessed a palantír, it would be Elrond. As loremaster of the North, he knew of the existence of the palantíri, which was little-known in the late 3rd Age, and it would have been apparent that Minas Anor/Minas Tirith was never lost to an enemy. To presume that Denethor possessed the palantír would have been quite sensible.

Otherwise, however, what Galadrield55 says is quite reasonable. There is no reason for Elrond--or pretty much anyone else--to assume that Denethor was using the palantír. Even Gandalf only figures this out once the palantíri are brought back out of the depths of his memory by the discovery that Saruman was using the Orthanc-stone. If it was a surprise for Gandalf to discover that the Stones were still being used, it must have been unknown to Elrond as well.

Which is not to say that Elrond could not have passed on information to the Kings of Gondor in earlier times in some manner using the stones, but I would think it more likely that he passed information on "conventionally" to the Northern Dúnedain and they were the ones who relayed anything to their southern kin via the palantíri.

It also seems to me that the great distance between Rivendell and Gondor should be emphasized. Faramir Jones suggests that Rohan isn't far away--but over what roads? Travelling from Rohan to Rivendell was no easy journey for Boromir going north and it wasn't a piece of cake for the Fellowship going south. This is, after all, one of the things Tolkien does really well: convey how long--how much walking--it took to get from one distant place to another.

And this is without getting into the question of both Gondor, Rivendell, and the nations between growing insular as the age passed--an insularity which is not, of course, to be commended, but is nonetheless a fact of the story--perhaps one might even call it a sociological or psychological fact.

[Rhod the Red]

The dwarves of the Blue Mountains.

But that'd mean them giving up mining there, the Elves of the Grey Havens lending/staffing the craft there to take them to Gondor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

The dwarves of the Blue Mountains.

But that'd mean them giving up mining there, the Elves of the Grey Havens lending/staffing the craft there to take them to Gondor.

That leads to a question of who would have aided Gondor. I would think any available Dwarves would have seen Erebor as a more important focus for any military action, and would have gone to Dain first.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

The dwarves of the Blue Mountains.

But that'd mean them giving up mining there, the Elves of the Grey Havens lending/staffing the craft there to take them to Gondor.

Highly impractical, I fear, given the distances involved. There also were not many dwarves in the Blue Mountains so they would not have been able to provide much aid.

Also, dwarves did not fancy the sea very much and would probably not have wanted to sail there.

And then there is what Inziladun said...