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#1 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
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![]() Whoa, pard. Best to load up with something other than blanks before you start shooting the messenger. No idea about how well you grasp the obvious, but them thar dastardly Hollywood moguls acquired the movie rights legally, for what at the time would've been considered a princely sum. If the first movie had bombed, that would've meant no billion-dollar Tolkien media empire. But here's Chris Tolkien, all like... Hollywood is a satanic scabrous brothel, a loathsome sump of vile whoremongers peddling lowbrow filth to the hoi-polloi. ...And I shall have my percentage! Which is hypocrisy, to use the technical term. (You can google it.) Nice list of charities, as smokescreens go anyway... "Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged." Not that ol' Chris is a villain, that would be too significant. More of a Frank Sinatra Junior, or maybe something a bit more abject. "Hypocritical money-grubbing elitist reptile" works. Quote:
Would that be like someone who vacuums up every last motley scrap of paper JRR ever touched, hastily glues it together and sells the resulting garbled mess as a lost masterpiece?
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Ma gavte la nata |
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#2 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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I don't think Christopher has ever claimed any of his father's "reassembled" works to be a "masterpiece". He's been quite frank about the limitations of such works as Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion. Would you prefer that they had never seen the light of day? And if you don't like the job CT did, who would you have preferred as an editor?
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#3 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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Christopher Tolkien has the same legal right you go on about to write books about his father’s works as the film makers have to make their films. Christopher Tolkien’s books have sold unexpectedly well. I have not seen most of them pushed as a “lost masterpiece”. I have seen the films pushed as masterpieces. Christopher Tolkien has a legal claim to a share of the profits of the films (if any). The claim of the film makers is that they have as yet made no money from the films. The courts disagreed. If you believe that the courts were wrong, then explain how they were wrong. If your claim is on the legal level, then keep it on that level. Legally it would not matter if Christopher Tolkien were an axe-murderer and pederast and abominable writer. As executor of the Tolkien estate he has the right and duty to protect the estate. Similarly the film investors have the right and duty to protect their investment. Your argument seems to me to be that because you think that Christopher Tolkien has done a poor job of managing his father’s legacy the courts should have accepted that the films have as yet made no profit. But one has nothing to do with the other. And sales of the books put out by Christopher Tolkien indicate, taken by themselves, that he is doing a good job. The courts decided that the film investors were lying. That is not a blank. Under the legal agreement which J. R. R. Tolkien signed Christopher Tolkien is entitled to money according to the courts. Last edited by jallanite; 07-13-2012 at 01:32 PM. |
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#4 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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I don't know why you have such an axe to grind, but it seems to me you have seriously misjudged the intent of Christopher Tolkien as executor of his father's unpublished material, and you are utterly misguided regarding the scholarly value and reading enjoyment of Christopher Tolkien's publications. He has shown the utmost integrity and a love for his father's work that I find exemplary. Your posts, on the other hand, leave much to be desired.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 07-13-2012 at 05:21 PM. |
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#5 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Any facts in there? Sources for quotations?
On what basis do you feel you have the right to address Christopher Tolkien as "Ol'Chris"? say he is insignificant and abject? Cheers Morth, jallanite and Inzil.. no need for me to reiterate your splendid comments.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#6 | ||||||||
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
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(That was an analogy.) Quote:
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(Still not at all clear about the "parasites" comment. Who are the alleged parasites? Peter Jackson? New Zealand? Honda?) Quote:
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Ma gavte la nata |
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#7 |
Laconic Loreman
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Please, do not use the Constitution as a crutch for your ignorant drivel. It's embarrassing.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 07-14-2012 at 04:05 AM. |
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#8 | ||||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,514
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Don't read them.
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X says that Y can use some of his ideas. Y makes good money on the ideas. X comes to Y and says, "give me some credit for the idea!" While hating how the "idea" was messed around with by the movies, games, and etc, what is wrong with demanding the due for giving the original spark - especially if by the contract that gave the movie rights part of the profit goes to the Tolkiens? Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#9 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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Christopher Tolkien was already rich, made so by his father’s writing —which includes sale of film rights—and he has already donated large amounts. He has the same rights of freedom of speech as anyone else. It is the film producers who have been convicted of crying all the way to the bank claiming, “We still haven’t made any money!”, not Christopher Tolkien. If Christopher Tolkien avoided criticizing the film companies, would that have been not hypocritical? It seems to me that not saying what you really think is also called hypocritical. It is your hypocrisy that staggers me. You continue to avoid the fact that the film companies lost legally and were forced to pay Christopher Tolkien. Having got at least some of the money to which he is legally entitled, he is also entitled to laugh all the way to the bank having beaten the film companies. No hypocrisy at all. You apparently would prefer that Christopher Tolkien had done nothing and allowed the film companies to continue in their lies. But that too would be called hypocrisy. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Quote:
Last edited by jallanite; 07-14-2012 at 08:30 AM. |
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#10 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Smiley emoticons do not replace sentient content, nor do they mask an apparent lack of courtesy. As a new member of the forum, I am wondering why you have decided to take an altogether contrarian attitude here.
If it is your intention to alienate yourself from the rest of us, then congratulations, you are well on your way to pariah status. Quote:
If you have an actual example of such extraordinary documentation, research and editing of unpublished works of an author compiled by a single person, I'd like to hear it. Pepys? Boswell? I have quite an extensive library of literary criticism and research and I've seen nothing like it. If you have something valid to offer rather than snide and unsubstantiated contentions, then do so; if not, then there is no debate. I would consider The Silmarillion, the 12 volumes of The History of Middle-earth, The Children of Hurin, and The Legend of Sigrid and Gudrun to be "unprecedented", but then again J.R.R. Tolkien himself was unprecedented in the depth and scope of his subcreation. And I am grateful to Christopher Tolkien for making this documentation available to the public.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 07-14-2012 at 09:51 AM. |
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#11 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Still not at all clear about the "parasites" comment. Who are the alleged parasites? Peter Jackson? New Zealand? Honda? Those who use things they have no legal entitlement to use them or welch on the contract to use them.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#12 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Thanks for posting the English translation of the interview, davem. I had a link to the French but the type was not clear enough for me with my very rusty French.
I have a few questions about the translation, such as when Sedulia defends the right to call Christropher Tolkien a professor, rather than use his correct title of Lecturer or Fellow. It doesn't do to fall back on "but in America we say" when there is a legitimately meaningful difference. I also wonder why--and this is perhaps in the original--much is made of Christopher Tolkien's "upper class" accent. Is that a point which is supposed to influence our understanding of his position? It is very good to be reminded that the producers used that despicable line about 'not having shown profits yet' as a way to deny the Estate their legitimate profits. It provides a perspective on why the lawyers are being so assiduous about the rights of the Estate. As I recall, that line has also been used by the producers of Jimi Hendrick's music to deny his heirs any money from his estate. There's a culture of legal nitpicking and entitlement these days that amounts to greed and abuse by those in authority who feel empowered over those who may lack power. I'm glad the Estate won their case. Perhaps if The Scouring of the Shire had not been omitted from the films the producers might have understood the squalour of their position. I often think of the history of medieval texts when I look at how Middle-earth has fed so many different imaginations. This interest is a tribute to Tolkien's desire to write a story that would interest him, and hopefully interest others. The text invites entry into the world; this could well be a quality that other authors have not pursued. But the effect is also an ironic consequence of something Tolkien himself noted in his essay on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Quote:
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Like Christopher Tolkien, I don't particularly like the movies (although my dislike is milder than his). Yet at the same time I have to wonder if this explosion of versions of Middle-earth isn't in fact a literary phenomenon like the kind seen in medieval stories. It becomes a tribute to Tolkien's writing, both his scholarly and his fictive interests.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#13 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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Tales that have reached Tolkien’s level of popularity are few. Some are semi-religious epics: The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, The Mahābhārata, and The Ramayana. Some are fantasy compilations that are mostly inventions of a single author, for example the Orlando Furioso of Ludovico Ariosto. But Ariosto never found a great English translator and his work is almost unknown in the English-language world today. Tolkien said he had never read it and would have hated it if he had. The most popular English-language work in the 19th century was Harriet Beecher Stowe’s virulently anti-slavery Uncle Tom’s Cabin, a book almost unread today. Stories become extraordinarily popular and then disappear almost entirely. Most medieval tales are not very popular today, read only in translation by people who are particularly interested in the matter of the works or their influence on other works. Literary critics really can’t explain this. Ballantine Books attempted to cash in on Tolkien by publishing a library of fantasy classics. They sold only reasonably well at the time and are now again mostly long out-of-print in popular editions. One comes again and again upon the belief that Tolkien was the unique founder of the fantasy genre, an indication of the degree to which the many, many earlier fantasy works are unknown to many. Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin, despite its popularity, was better known to the masses from numerous dramatic adaptations. The story of Hamlet and King Lear are almost only known from Shakespeare’s adaptations, not from the earlier non-tragic medieval accounts. In the earlier years of the 20th century Ariosto was better known in Italy in puppet-theater adaptations. |
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#14 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Couple of interesting things: first, this the first comment I've read from CT about the films. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the family had refused to make any comment at all about them. Second, its also fairly clear from his comment that he has seen the films - or at least the first one.
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That said, there are some frankly dumb things in the movies that he ought to be slapped for. My own dissatisfaction at the movies is simply that they don't 'feel' like Lord of the Rings - something is missing - its in the BBC radio series, which CT played a part in bringing into being, sending tapes of correct pronunciations to the adaptors & corresponding with them - not to mention allowing them to incorporate material from Unfinished Tales into the series. I don't know why the radio version captures the mood & spirit of the book & the movies don't. That said, & if CT thinks PJ has 'trivialised' his father's work, let's imagine what Michael Bey or James Cameron might have gifted us with ... Its unlikely any movie of Lord of the Rings would have suited CT - and certainly not his father given his comments in OFS. Still, Tolkien sold the film rights & made PJ's movie possible. It could certainly be argued that if CT feels as he does he should direct at least some of his anger at his father for selling his pearl of great price in the first place. The book is still there for those who want to read it. |
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#15 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#16 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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As for the accent... the original is "Un Anglais distingué, doté d'un accent trčs upper class" I don't know that is making much of it, Doté is a bit stronger than with. It literally has the sense of endowed with. From the Silmarillion recordings, Christopher does have a very upper class accent.... though not suprising for someone of his age and schooling, especially an expat. If you use a different language for a lot of day to day life it can keep your native language in a time warp. It seems a pretty good translation really though I have been using French more recently it isn't back to what it was by a long chalk.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#17 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Not here in North North America!
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#18 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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And no, I don't worship at the altar of Christopher Tolkien, nor the Estate who have done some quite odious things (giving to charidee doesn't give you an exemption clause from being decent to small businesses etc). He has also got himself a job for life and I have concerns about 'sole gatekeepers' to literary estates after the debacle over the control Ted Hughes's sister had over the Plath literary estate. But you have to be realistic, he's human! And the Estate was entitled to that cash. Quote:
That, I think, is because the writing, and in particular, the visual message implied in the langauge, is so strong. It's shared with George RR Martin too. JK Rowling, as much as I love her to pieces, doesn't share this, sadly. Or perhaps it is down to maturity of audience? It could be an interesting discussion, to root out whether the films really have altered our mental Middle-earth landscape, and to what extent... I do sneakily like the idea that it's all out of Tolkien's hands though, as that's where actual mythology begins.
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