Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, for the heck of it I took a stab at Scyrr. Tell me to withdraw and I will. Should I make him more aggressive?

I think it was fine. I mean Scyrr can't be a totally evil person or a baddie rotten all through for then he would not be here and a sergeant of Athanar's guard. That said he clearly has an attitude-problem - and the situation at the Mead Hall doesn't exactly help as he is partly trying to keep the side of those he thinks his own against those who to him seem to try and unjustifiably force the lordship from his lord and dishonour him and his mates (like Folwren put Thornden to reminisce: the "locals" tried to kill him on the second day and some still held those wanna-be murderers their heroes).

I mean let's not make him a caricature even if he isn't one of the nicest persons around... (Which means, no let''s not make him any more aggressive. What you wrote lmp, I think was fine.)

A few comments about the coming scenarios a bit later.

[Folwren]

I'm glad you took him, Elempi! You made him sufficiently ... unpleasant... as Nogrod said.

-- Foley

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I'm glad you took him, Elempi! You made him sufficiently ... unpleasant... as Nogrod said.

-- Foley

Well, it's nice to know I can do unpleasant.

[Nogrod]

I did actually read the whole scene about Athanar and the men of The Mead Hall visiting Faramund - and then shortly Tancred and Alboin as well. It was actually a pretty good read. To anyone willing to refresh their memories, the story starts more or less from page 21 post #815 (or p. 22 #846 the latest) and continues all along to page 25 - although there sure is other stuff there in between concerning things happening at the Mead Hall (like Raban and Javan! We need to get those two back!)

Anyway it reminded me of many things we had written concerning the local landlords and yes, Stedford lmp mentioned already (and it actually gives some quite nice portraits of our characters as well - and their relations; like how Athanar learns to really trust Thornden).

I think we need to deploy Stedford into the storyline somehow.


That said there are a few things I think we shoud all consider thinking about the new plotline.

First of all, lord Athanar has Faramund's ledger and it might reveal a thing or two about what is going on. More of that later.

Secondly, Friduhelm is weak from his illness but as we left him he was standing firm to reclaim his authority. We know not yet how it has turned out there: has Faramund taken his place as a dutiful son or has he rebelled against his father. Also would Friduhelm be ready to testify against the other lords and would they like to shut his mouth for good? And what has Stedford to do with the situation at their place, or could he be the agent to stir things up by fex. coming to the Mead Hall and reporting - whatever we decide has happened to kick us forwards?

Tancred seemed to be the realist I thought he would be and had pledged his good will (in front of some forty to fifty men in arms standing at his porch that's probably wise). But he was said to have been the commander of Eodwine - teaching him he said - and Athanar has also served under him in the Great War. He is a commanding figure, some ten years older than Eodwine and Athanar, a real war hero and a Leader (with a capital L). And I would say he will not be done away with that easily - although I think he might in the last instance be the one that could be turned back to the path of righteousness if the right chords could be played. But that I would say should be our last resort if we write ourselves into a dead-end alley...

Alboin is the sneaky one. He's also a veteran but one Eodwine dislikes a lot and it's easy to see Athanar doesn't actually love him either. There was this interesting thing back there where it was said Eodwine thought him a coward but some praised his courage... That might be a nice detail we might work on? Maybe something in their shared past, in the battle of Pelennor fields? Maybe Eodwine witnessed something Alboin does not wish to remember or to be known?


So what is going on in general - and what the ledger might reveal in part? Well, what seems to be the case is that the three lords (Tancred, Alboin and Faramund) have been exploiting the local farmers by two ways at least. Firstly by forcing them to pay over-rated amounts from any help they would give them in need - methodically taking fex. their livestock, crops, any holdings or estates as payment creating a kind of serfdom at worst (I don't think it had been said openly there but I'd see it as one natural way of "paying one's debt" to work for it). Secondly by speaking the law pretty harshly and keeping the fines themselves or at least only giving the king the basic fare and keeping the rest themselves.

And surely, if they are ruining the livelihoods of the farmers around their area the number of crime will skyrocket as people need to provide their daily bread to their families - and thus they can yield even more to themselves from trials against the people they had forced into poverty and inhuman conditions themselves in the first place.

So no wonder if people rebelled against such a rule.


~*~

Let me then end by mulling about with one idea...

Now Friduhelm declared in public that he would pay back for every farmer that came to complain about his son's rulings. How would Faramund take that humilation? How would Tancred and Alboin take it as that would undermine their authority and decisions as well? And T & A would also realise as intelligent men that the Mead Hall as such was becoming a threat to their ways as it would side with Friduhelm.

So someone would decide to get rid of Friduhelm rather sooner than later? And that would be followed by a popular revolt (led by Stedford?)?

Well possibly, but wouldn't that be a bit reckelss from T & A whom both we have characterised as shrewd and intelligent men?

Looking at it from T & A's perspective a possible pact with the MH could be the most promising route to their own continued prosperity as it seems clear - and Athanar made it clear for them all - that the king himself was especially worried about the Mid Emnet as he hasted to appoint a new eorl without waiting for Eodwine to either recover or die.

Now here we might have some rift between Eodwine and Athanar where the latter might be interested in having a deal that could be called just in some terms and being acceptable to the king and the good of the realm while Eodwine might call for some heavier moral justice. I could see Athanar as that kind of an utilitarianist.

That kind of a route would of course give us less drama... But then again, if Faramund goes and kills his father it is hard to see there being any difference of opinion between Athanar and Eodwine. Though I'm not sure they need to be of a different opinon for us to have a nice plot, but whatever.

But could there be something more shrewd machinated by Tancred and Alboin (maybe Faramund, but he seems too reckless to be able to plot anything - he could be the "joker-factor to be sure)?

Like if they consealedly aided a popular revolt to burst forth (maybe letting the uneducated to think the Mead Hall is a part of their problems) and then claimed it had to be suppressed with a strong hand, offering themselves as the champions of that?

Or if they had it the way our bankers and investment-dealers have it today and wish to get as much as they can as fast as they could as long as the cow can be milked and then wish to fly away? So how would they try to smokescreen the MH not seeing it? And how would that turn out in the minds of Eodwine and Athanar, like one saw what was happening and the other refused to believe it? No, that's a bad idea.

Okay. it's too late now and I'm off to sleep, but let's remember that we should not make Tancred or Alboin fools either. I'd like to see them as real cunning persons with witty plans our "heroes" will have hard times to crack.

And sure Faramund, Friduhelm and Stedford should play a role there.

Let's think about it.

[Folwren]

What if Faramund murdered his own father and the people revolted after that? Or, we can even elimintate murder and just say the old man died of natural causes, and Faramund, angry at what had occurred, came down harder on his people and that plus the passing of their old lord, pushes them beyond their limits.

What if, then, the word of their rebellion reaches Alboin's folk, who are not as badly pressed as Faramund's people were, but who may be over-taxed (I may be wrong in this, I can't remember if Alboin mis-treatd his folk much at all), and so they began a revolt, too. I think that it could easily spread from estate to estate, no?

Finally, Tancred hears of everything that is going on, and he may realize that he is in danger of his people wanting to demand more freedoms or rights, and so he seems to give into them before they properly revolt, while at the same time, he goes to Athanar either for help or to offer his services to help overcome revolts, perhaps with the idea in mind that if he is of service and does right by his people and by Athanar, he will gain some reward, especially if Faramund or Alboin are killed. Perhaps he will receive some of the land or something. Faramund has no children, does he? His land could potentially be in need of new lordship, if he is killed.

Everything I just wrote is really, really rough, but I don't think I could put it any better because I really know nothing about politics of that time period, or how rebellions would spread, and what would happen, and all that.

But I agree that Alboin and Tancred are probably no fools, and I almost see Tancred coming along side Athanar and Eodwine to help overcome the problems, but probably with the idea of gaining something in mind.

[littlemanpoet]

What if Faramund had rascals paid to take out his father? - they conveniently escape and Faramund publicly deplores the scoundrels?

I like Folwren's developments on Nogrod's ideas.

[Nogrod]

On the issue of the local three lords taking advantage of the farmers living around them: I think they have all being treating the farmers unjustly and perhaps also illegally. That said, I think Tancred and Alboin had started it, perhaps without even kind of realising it at first (well, Alboin might have realised it...), but it had grown little by little with their well-being and richness. (This could be the excuse for Tancred if we wish to "save him", that he became blind to what he was doing) Now Friduhelm surely was not with it, but when Faramund rose into lordship he had hard time to show he was "worth the others" and thus maybe mistreated the people around his hall the worst.

I still like the idea that Alboin is the one who is knowing what he is doing while Faramund tries to imitate him and Tancred, and Tancred himself, being old and all, just enjoys his raising living standards taking them for granted and doesn't exactly realise how much wrong he is doing (which doesn't mean he is stupid or weak - he should still be the charismatic old warlord). Tancred might also have a kind of aristocratic view of the world where he would think that after all the service he had done for Rohan it is just fair others support him in wealth after the fact, or something along the lines.


But my idea actually is the following... how about we make Faramund a real tragic character?

He's a reckless, and well, bad youngster who has been given too much too early: insecure, self-important, greedy, egoistic, willing to prove / show himself... you name it. Now his dad has put him back to his place and he is filled with anger and humiliation.

But the more important thing in general would be Friduhelm's promise to pay back to the farmers for any injustice they have been submitted to. Now that is something, as I said, both Tancred and Alboin would be afraid of, and for a reason as the general feeling could spread.

Now if we think Tancred is in the end still the decent man who has just kind of faltered from the narrow road of virtue and is thus incapable of downright monstrosities, then let's enter Alboin whom I still think might be the intelligent and dangerous person.

So hearing about what happened at Faramund's (Friduhelm's) place he would take action and organise the secret assasination of Friduhelm - likely in a way it looked like a natural death, but whatever it looked like, there would be second guesses and they would naturally point at Faramund!

If Athanar and thus king Eomer would bite it that there was just one rotten apple aka. Faramund, he (and Tancred) could continue more or less the way they had done before... Also, by thus creating a more hideous case for the common people to talk about (a son murdering his father) he might wish for the case against wrongly levied payments etc. by him and Tancred to go with lesser notice as they could always exaggerate how badly Faramund treated the people around his lands by creating rumours to fit their needs... (meaning that their practises would look reasonable in comparison to Faramund's and thus the people would settle with them and not try to find out what would be justified in general)

Here we might also have room for a courageous & intelligent Stedford who'd realise at least that it is a cover up and he would come to the Mead Hall raising the concern - or if he knew more he could actually raise a rebellion straight against Alboin! Also we would have this delicious character Faramund still with us with all the complexities.

It would call for some people to write those characters actually, I could take one of them, but let's see... If we come to this kind of solution I think Alboin needs writing as well and I could take him instead of Faramund / Stedford.

But let's see first what you think about this idea (it could easily accomodate a lot of Folwren's ideas).