The Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Courtly Love

[Galadriel55]

Welcome Idril! I like your nickname!

I can't claim to be the History of ME expert (though some here are), but I'll try to give my two cents on this.

The souls of Men may leave the world upon death, which means that they leave the Halls of Mandos. I don't know where they go, probably to the Void since it's the only place we know about outside Ea. It is said that they will be in Iluvatar's "choir" and will make the second Music after Dagor Dagorath.

I am not sure if the souls of Elves will also leave the world after it is broken and remade. I think that when Finrod died he told Beren something that would suggest that perhaps they would meet again in another world, or something that is just as confusing. I don't have the books with me to quote, but I will do so when I have them.

As for your 1) question, I don't think so. I think Tolkien changed his mind after what you read in Morgoth's Ring (I don't know, I never read it), because there are examples of the opposite. Finrod is one. Some time after his death , he, reincarnated, walked with his father Finarfin in Valinor (which suggests that he was not reborn as someone else). And the more obvious one, Glorfindel. He is the very same one in LOTR as in The Sil. He reincarnated and was sent back to ME.

[Puddleglum]

The "Fea" of men (spirit) do leave "Ea" ("The World that Is") after death.

Tolkien has repsented "Ea" as the embodiement and living out of a Grand Theme of music (cf "Music of the Ainur") - essentially a Drama or Story, designed by Eru and adorned by the actions of his created beings (from Ainur to Quendi, Atani, Dwarves, etc). Thus, he talks in some of his Letters (eg #200) about the Valar being required to "remain in it 'until the story was finished'".

Men (and Hobbits as a branch of Atani) have a special gift to be able to leave the story and step OUTSIDE (where they, perhaps, can watch the story unfold). Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian (& Catholic) it seems a fair presumption that, upon leaving Ea, they would dwell in the Halls of Eru (the "Void" simply being the places outside Ea that are not dwelling places of Eru and the Ainur).

Saying Mandos "sends" the spritis of Men, etc "may" not be fully accurate. I've thought that their Fea depart the world (by the gift of Eru) and their destination thereafter is no longer in the hands of the Valar. Whether they travel on their own, or are escorted by Ainur (or by Eru himself) is speculation - I've not heard/read anything about that by Tolkien.

On their time in Aman, Tolikien (in Letter 246) states of Frodo that "he went to both a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred'." To "be healed - if that could be done, before he died." Sam, presumably, would have a similar experience.

Gimli, being a Dwarf, is a bit of an odd case. Aule made the Dwarves (tho Eru gave them a place in his creation) but there are uncertain reports or beliefs by Dwarves and others about their fate after "dying". They believe they go to Mandos and their wait the end when they will aid Aule in the remaking of Arda. But it is never said certainly whether that belief is accurate or not.

Silmarillion says that it is believed (by the Valar) that Atani (Men) will join in the Second Music of the Ainur after the end of Ea, but that Eru has not revealed what he has in store for Quendi (Elves). "Morgoth's Ring" has a section "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" which discusses this in some detail and especially how this requires a special Trust and Hope (Estel) of the Eldar. They know they will live till the end of Ea, but have NO PROMISE of surviving after that, while Men have the promise of dwelling eternally with Eru (tho they live only a short time with Ea before "dying").

About Legolas being Oropher? I've never read anything by Tolkien that suggested such was the case. And, as Galadriel55 noted, Tolkien shifted to going with the rebodying of slain Eldar - which meant they were rebodied by the Valar in Valinor. Only in very unusual cases would they then manage to travel back to Middle Earth (Glorfindel is the only such case I'm aware of).

For your Q2, I think it's important to consider you are working from an extremely small sample-set. You mentioned three cases (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril & Aragor/Arwen). I can think of exactly Two other cases in the whole history of Arda ...

• Imrazor and Mithrellas. Imrazor was, per legend, the father of the first lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas was a maiden companion of Nimrodel.
• Aegnor (brother of Finrod) and Andreth (women of the house of Beor)

The latter was never consumated, but the Athrabeth makes clear Aegnor's love for Andreth was real, and only wisdom led him to forbear - for Andreth's sake (a whole other discussion).

So, only 5 cases in all of history. And one of those was a male Elf loving a Female Human. Not purely according to odds of pure chance, but if you flipp a coin 5 times - there will be occasions when you get 4 heads and 1 tail.

Then, too, it could be a simple case of Human Men (in such times of unrest and war and danger) tend to travel to seek out Elves more than either human women traveling or any elves seeking out men. Thus there will be more meetings between Human Men and Elvish Females than the opposite.

[Mumriken]

The only ones who are sure to be meeting eachother again are, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Frido, Boromir. Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda and the elves...who knows. I'm not sure what Gandalf will be doing either.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

The only ones who are sure to be meeting eachother again are, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Frido, Boromir. Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda.

I don't think there's any evidence for that.

[Mumriken]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I don't think there's any evidence for that.

That is if they can find eachother after death. There must be many dead "man" spirits flying around out there in the void.

[Galadriel55]

How do you know that Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How do you know that Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda?

Well, I didn't say "I" know. I said it is "their" belief. That comes from Silmarillion (Of Aule and Yavanna).

"Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle Earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made;
yet that is not their belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Illuvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End.
Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the Remaking of Arda after the Last Battle."

So, nothing more than that this is the belief of the Dwarves about their fate.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

That is if they can find eachother after death. There must be many dead "man" spirits flying around out there in the void.

'If's' and 'must be's' are rather unreliable words.

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"Welcome Idril! I like your nickname!

I can't claim to be the History of ME expert (though some here are), but I'll try to give my two cents on this.

The souls of Men may leave the world upon death, which means that they leave the Halls of Mandos. I don't know where they go, probably to the Void since it's the only place we know about outside Ea. It is said that they will be in Iluvatar's "choir" and will make the second Music after Dagor Dagorath.

Thank you and mae govannen! I appreciate every two cents I can get since I am (obviously) no expert either. ; )

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tolkien has repsented "Ea" as the embodiement and living out of a Grand Theme of music (cf "Music of the Ainur") - essentially a Drama or Story, designed by Eru and adorned by the actions of his created beings (from Ainur to Quendi, Atani, Dwarves, etc). Thus, he talks in some of his Letters (eg #200) about the Valar being required to "remain in it 'until the story was finished.

Forgive me if this question is redundant or has already answered in another form (it's been a while since I've read either The Silmarillion or The Lost Tales), but would the Valar cease to exist in the Second Music after Dagor Dagorath? I recently read "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where Finrod describes the Eldar as being tethered to Arda (unlike Men), and Arda to the Valar. If the Valar/Arda cease to exist surely the Eldar will as well?

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Men (and Hobbits as a branch of Atani) have a special gift to be able to leave the story and step OUTSIDE (where they, perhaps, can watch the story unfold). Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian (& Catholic) it seems a fair presumption that, upon leaving Ea, they would dwell in the Halls of Eru (the "Void" simply being the places outside Ea that are not dwelling places of Eru and the Ainur).

As a practicing Christian it seems to me that the Void is an allusion to Purgatory, a sort of in between worlds. Tolkien, a Catholic, would have certainly believed in the existence of Purgatory (I personally am Methodist and do not). If the Void is Purgatory, between Arda/Aman, point A, and the Beyond, point B, what is point B? The time of Second Music-- a tertiary world equivalent to the Judeo-Christian "Heaven"? From the information you have given: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, and Aragorn will be seeing each other in the Afterlife. Gimli has a fighting chance since Eru granted the Dwarves a place in his Grand Music, as do Legolas and Gandalf, Immortals.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

About Legolas being Oropher? I've never read anything by Tolkien that suggested such was the case. And, as Galadriel55 noted, Tolkien shifted to going with the rebodying of slain Eldar - which meant they were rebodied by the Valar in Valinor. Only in very unusual cases would they then manage to travel back to Middle Earth (Glorfindel is the only such case I'm aware of).

The inconsistency in canon is addressed by Christopher in the prologue to "Laws & Customs Among the Eldar." Is there an updated account of things that are set-in-stone canon published by C.T.? Thank you for your insight on Legolas and Oropher!

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

For your Q2, I think it's important to consider you are working from an extremely small sample-set. You mentioned three cases (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril & Aragor/Arwen). I can think of exactly Two other cases in the whole history of Arda ...

• Imrazor and Mithrellas. Imrazor was, per legend, the father of the first lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas was a maiden companion of Nimrodel.
• Aegnor (brother of Finrod) and Andreth (women of the house of Beor)

The latter was never consumated, but the Athrabeth makes clear Aegnor's love for Andreth was real, and only wisdom led him to forbear - for Andreth's sake (a whole other discussion).

I had forgotten about Aegnor and Andreth. In "Laws & Customs" Tolkien makes note that marriages/consummation among the Valar only happen during times of peace. So yes, their love was real enough, but unfortunately destined to fail because of the Siege of Angband. My actual question which I failed to communicate: Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love? Tolkien incorporated several customs of the Medieval Ages and literary devices of Epic poetry into his work (weregild is actually name-dropped by Boromir in FotR). I am curious if anyone else saw the correlation.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Idril

would the Valar cease to exist in the Second Music after Dagor Dagorath?

Short answer, I would say, is No. The Valar "are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world." (LoT #133) and "this condition Illuvatar made" (referring to the Valar coming in) "or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete." (Music of the Ainur). More is said that could be taken ambiguously, but I think this is the essence that Eru won't allow them to bow out of their task - no matter how long it is. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF LOVE. But, having being before and distinct from Ea, when it's story is over they would (I believe) still "be".

Elves are a bit different in that they have their being in and from Arda (being both Fea, spirit, AND Hroa, physical body). Estel would say that Eru must have a plan and purpose for all his children beyond the "full making" - but Estel (hope) is all they have in that regards.

Originally Posted by Idril

it seems to me that the Void is an allusion to Purgatory, a sort of in between worlds.

The Ainulindale says that "Melkor ... had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame ... and he was impatient of the emptiness of {the Void}" and also "Illuvatar went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur ... But when they were come into the Void..."

From these, and other, statements it seems that the Void is less a Purgatory (a place for the dead to go and await judgement) than simply the places OTHER THAN the places where the Ainur were to dwell. Also, that it existed (if that is even the right term) before Ea.

Originally Posted by Idril

Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love?

It could be. I think it's a great observation and question, but I fear I'm not up enough on the Medieval concept (as far as details) to contribute much. Hopefully others can chime in.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Idril

My actual question which I failed to communicate: Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love? Tolkien incorporated several customs of the Medieval Ages and literary devices of Epic poetry into his work (weregild is actually name-dropped by Boromir in FotR). I am curious if anyone else saw the correlation.

Courtly love, in the medieval literary sense, is guilty love: Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere, the Breton Bisclavret, Le Roman du Châtelain de Coucy et de la Dame de Fayel, and even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and Boccaccio's Decameron, all deal with adulterous or illicit love. Tolkien does not condone such unions and the Eldar/Edain courtships are not at all in the style of medieval courtly love.

You will find more detail from epics of the early Middle Ages present in Tolkien's work, as opposed to the high Middle Ages when courtly love was in fashion. Weregild, for instance, is mentioned in Beowulf, and Isildur refers to the One Ring as "weregild" in payment for the death of his father, Elendil. So too, the naming conventions for many of the Dwarves (and Gandalf) come from the Völuspá, and many of the plot points in the story of Turin Turambar were derived from the Kalevela, both drawn, like Beowulf, from oral tradition that came from the early Middle Ages, or perhaps predates it altogether.

One might as well throw in other literary works such as the Old Testament, the Welsh Mabinogion, Plato's Dialogues, and the Icelandic Eddas and the Volsunga Saga, as far as veins of literature that Tolkien mined.

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Courtly love, in the medieval literary sense, is guilty love: Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere, the Breton Bisclavret, Le Roman du Châtelain de Coucy et de la Dame de Fayel, and even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and Boccaccio's Decameron, all deal with adulterous or illicit love. Tolkien does not condone such unions and the Eldar/Edain courtships are not at all in the style of medieval courtly love.

You seem to be knowledgable about the concept of courtly love. Although I am a history major with a concentration in the Medieval Ages I must admit I've never heard it being bluntly described as "guilty." I'm 20, I'm young, I have a lot to learn, and I'll trust your judgement on this. : )
My impression of courtly love is that a love based on admiration bordering on idolatry, if "love" can exist under the circumstances. For instance, a knight who has fallen for a lady far above his station. He understands he will never be able to be with her but continues to harbor illicit feelings regardless. The lady is put upon a pedestal as a sort of otherworldly creature --unattainable, divine. That seems more in the vein of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship, does it not? A Mortal (albeit one of royal lineage) who has fallen in love with the Immortal Evenstar, his foster-sister.
Courtly love of the High Middle Ages did have a certain element of sadomasochism that Aragorn and Arwen's relationship lacks, and that I in no way imply it possesses. In my opinion, their love (Aragorn's), while pure, did include a near-idolatrous edge to it at first. If I remember correctly, Aragorn fell to the ground in awe when he first met Arwen because he believed her to be the vision of Luthien Tinuviel. Arwen was charmed by his mistake but chose not to return his love until some time later. In comparison to other couples in LoTR: Sam and Rosie and Faramir and Eowyn, their love doesn't quite appear balanced.

Perhaps the lack of balance is due to Aragorn's (Estel) age when he first met Arwen. Some 20-odd years, was it not?

[Mumriken]

You seem to be knowledgable about the concept of courtly love. Although I am a history major with a concentration in the Medieval Ages I must admit I've never heard it being bluntly described as "guilty." I'm 20, I'm young, I have a lot to learn, and I'll trust your judgement on this. : )
My impression of courtly love is that a love based on admiration bordering on idolatry, if "love" can exist under the circumstances. For instance, a knight who has fallen for a lady far above his station. He understands he will never be able to be with her but continues to harbor illicit feelings regardless. The lady is put upon a pedestal as a sort of otherworldly creature --unattainable, divine. That seems more in the vein of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship, does it not? A Mortal (albeit one of royal lineage) who has fallen in love with the Immortal Evenstar, his foster-sister.
Courtly love of the High Middle Ages did have a certain element of sadomasochism that Aragorn and Arwen's relationship lacks, and that I in no way imply it possesses. In my opinion, their love (Aragorn's), while pure, did include a near-idolatrous edge to it at first. If I remember correctly, Aragorn fell to the ground in awe when he first met Arwen because he believed her to be the vision of Luthien Tinuviel. Arwen was charmed by his mistake but chose not to return his love until some time later. In comparison to other couples in LoTR: Sam and Rosie and Faramir and Eowyn, their love doesn't quite appear balanced.

Perhaps the lack of balance is due to Aragorn's (Estel) age when he first met Arwen. Some 20-odd years, was it not?

lol...there is no lack of balance. Beren had to face Thingol and Aragorn Elrond...that is the only unbalance there is if any. Also wasn't Aragorn/Arwen's relationship expanded greatly in the movies.

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

lol...there is no lack of balance. Beren had to face Thingol and Aragorn Elrond...that is the only unbalance there is if any. Also wasn't Aragorn/Arwen's relationship expanded greatly in the movies.

I was not basing my argument on the movies. In fact, I think the movies created a more equal relationship than the books.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Idril

You seem to be knowledgable about the concept of courtly love. Although I am a history major with a concentration in the Medieval Ages I must admit I've never heard it being bluntly described as "guilty." I'm 20, I'm young, I have a lot to learn, and I'll trust your judgement on this. : )
My impression of courtly love is that a love based on admiration bordering on idolatry, if "love" can exist under the circumstances. For instance, a knight who has fallen for a lady far above his station. He understands he will never be able to be with her but continues to harbor illicit feelings regardless. The lady is put upon a pedestal as a sort of otherworldly creature --unattainable, divine.

Back in the dark ages of last century, I was a lit. major/medieval studies minor - so I am actually living my Middle Ages currently. But my passion over the last few decades has been 14th century research. You are partially right that courtly love placed the intended object of affection on a pedestal, in this case always a noblewoman (never commoners, who were raped, robbed and murdered without compunction by any number of preux chevalier); however, it is not correct to think of this object of love as unattainable. Think of it as a challenge rather than impossibility, a quest for gratification as Jean de Meung allegorized in the famous Roman de la Rose. Instead of defeating a dragon or robber baron, the inevitable conquest is the rose (whose flowery petals and delicate inner parts are a metaphor for a woman's genitalia).

Thus, the concept of guilty or illicit love as a major plot point in tales of courtly love. In the vast majority of courtly love stories, poems, trouvere's ballads, etc., the object of desire is a married or espoused woman, usually a lord's or vassal's wife, many times that of a best friend (as in the case of King Arthur's wife, Guinevere, and her adultery with Lancelot). This heightens the danger and suspense of the story. Being in love with one's own spouse or betrothed is certainly not lurid and exciting enough material for the racy Provençal, Italians or French. You must understand that in the Middle Ages (and all the way up to the 19th century), marriage of the nobility was more a political ploy than a love match, and certain liberties were taken and infidelity often winked at. Even popes had bastards.

If anything, Tolkien bowdlerized the idea of courtly love, keeping the valor, devotion and ardent desire, but utterly removing the main themes of illicit love (and often rape, as in the tale of Lucretia as retold by both Boccaccio and Chaucer), treachery, sexual promiscuity and tragic endings - and nearly all the important tales of courtly love ended tragically (with the heart of the doomed lover sent in a box to his amour).

Oh, and welcome to the Downs, Idril, you bring up some intriguing points.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

- and nearly all the important tales of courtly love ended tragically (with the heart of the doomed lover sent in a box to his amour).

First, it depends on what one means by courtly love, a term that is never used in the medieval texts themselves. That said, there are certainly many tales of tragic lover affairs that are tragic, but not all are courtly by most definitions. The great Prose Tristan ends tragically but is far more focused on Tristan’s knightly exploits than on the love affair between Tristan and Yseult. It has never been called a courtly romance as far as I am aware.

Indeed I have read commentary on the so-called courtly versions of the Tristan story, those based on the version told by Thomas, which point out that Tristan and Yseult in these versions really don’t fit the supposed model as set forth in The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus (which in any case I think to be an obvious parody).

A popular medieval love story that ends happily is Aucassin and Nicolette. More often a love affair is just part of a medieval romance of adventure which tends to end with the marriage of the hero, or may contain a second movement in which the marriage falls into difficulties which are resolved, as in Chrétien de Troyes’ Erec et Enide or his Yvain.

I only vaguely recall any medieval romance in which the heart of the dead hero is sent to his lady love in a box. That is far from being a normal motif in medieval tales.

Tolkien hardly bowdlerizes his sources because he does not follow any sources closely. Rather, he picks and chooses even within the same tale and most often freely invents.

That said, Tolkien was more interested in adventurous tales than in love tales per se. The same is true of the author of Beowulf.