Gandalf on Tom Bombadil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

So Gandalf is a rolling stone and Tom is a stone with tons of moss on it. Hmmm there are several ways to interpret this. First a stone must be pushed to start rolling, so the valas pushed Gandalf down the hill. Bombadil is a moss gatherer, the big question is what is the moss? Does it just mean he hasn't been rolling or could it mean anything else? Also why isn't Bombadil rolling? Could the valas not make him roll?

My own opinion of that quote is that it merely contrasts the difference between the "watcher", Bombadil, and the "mover", Gandalf.

The latter had a specific task to perform in Middle-earth. Bombadil, however, seems to have no obvious goals or mission, and was content to sit on the sidelines and do his own thing.

The questions of Bombadil, his nature and his purpose, are much older than this forum. I know there are many who don't want to pigeonhole Tom into fitting into Arda's structure, but I think he was an Ainu who came out of the Void separately from the Valar, and did not participate in their activities. There is precedence for it, as Ungoliant seems to have been of the same sort. It was said that she was believed to have come "from the darkness that lies about Arda" (the Void). She answered to no one in Arda, and just did as she pleased. Seems very similar to Bombadil.

Perhaps both did have their own purpose in the thought of Ilúvatar, but what that might have been is barest conjecture.

[Mumriken]

Sounds reasonable, so Tom could actually be greater than Morgoth and Manwe. Since he is one of the unknown ainus like Ungoliant the valas did not know of him and his power. I really like the idea of these outcasts, great powers that doesn't fit in. However Tom can't be greater than illuvatar so for what reason did illuvatar create Tom other than to sing arda into existence? Yeah I know these questions have been asked before, I'm just bored and it's so fun to read your complex replies.

He was there before the dark lord entered, that means for whatever reason he sneaked in before the other great ainur did. What did he do in a empty arda?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My own opinion of that quote is that it merely contrasts the difference between the "watcher", Bombadil, and the "mover", Gandalf.

The latter had a specific task to perform in Middle-earth. Bombadil, however, seems to have no obvious goals or mission, and was content to sit on the sidelines and do his own thing.

That's a very neat interpretation. Mine was always influenced by the Russian translation, where a native expression is used that has a clear connotation, no riddles. For me it was always as simple as: Gandalf travelled, Tom stayed home. In the most literal physical sense. But I like your watcher/mover and mission idea.

[Mumriken]

I think there is more to this than just Gandalf being on the move and Tom staying in his forest. First of all, all rolling stones have had to be put into motion by someone, for the stone to be rolling it also needs to be round. (Shaped) A mossy stone isn't round because if it was it would easily move around and there would be no time for moss to grow on it. Also why isn't anyone pushing the mossy stone around? Maybe it's simply too large for them to push.

Now will moss start growing on Gandalf as well after he stops rolling around? What exactly could the moss mean, maybe it's knowledge. It's important to remember that moss only grows in dark, damp places. One could imagine dark and, damp to mean hidden places. Maybe Tom is:

Big
Knowledgeable
Hidden
Unmoveable
Unshaped

While Gandalf is:

Smaller
Younger
Known
Easily moved around by others
Not his own master

This suggests to me that Tom and Gandalf are not of the same kind. Tom must be a greater spirit. I agree with Inziladun, it's likely that Tom is a void creature not that different from Ungoliant yet maybe older. He is definitely up there with the great valas in terms of power. However if this is true one still needs to ask oneself why Tom was put into Arda in the first place.

He seems to care for the trees and for the earth. Maybe one could think of him as a gardener in Arda. Someone to keep the weeds and forest fires away? He probably took the shape of a larger fat hobbit in order to remain mossy and hidden.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

This suggests to me that Tom and Gandalf are not of the same kind. Tom must be a greater spirit. I agree with Inziladun, it's likely that Tom is a void creature not that different from Ungoliant yet maybe older. He is definitely up there with the great valas in terms of power. However if this is true one still needs to ask oneself why Tom was put into Arda in the first place.

He seems to care for the trees and for the earth. Maybe one could think of him as a gardener in Arda. Someone to keep the weeds and forest fires away? He probably took the shape of a larger fat hobbit in order to remain mossy and hidden.

Well, the obvious point is that no one put Tom anywhere. No one is his master. That's the major point. He went there cause he felt like it, Ilúvatar didn't object, and no one else could object.

I've also been amused to consider whether Tom is an aspect or avatar of Ilúvatar, in which case Middle Earth was created so Tom could shack up with Goldberry.

There is a fairly great spread of personalities among the Valar and Ainur. I'm not sure that distinctly different personalities is grounds for placing entities in different orders. There is certainly a greater divergence in personality between Tom and Ungoliant than Tom and Gandalf.

I see his purpose more as living than being a caretaker. From the perspective of elves and men, the Valar are masters of various aspects. One might be the hunter, another the mistress of nature. Among the wizards, Gandalf does fire while Radagast does beasts. Tom might call himself master, but he would be master of all and nothing. He orders things somewhat within the territory he sets for himself, but not in an organized structured way.

Specifically, he is not a lord, not a ruler. The wizards were forbidden from confronting Sauron with force or fear, and excepting Saruman didn't rule large numbers of others, setting themselves up as heads of state. Tom took this to an even greater extent. With the possible exception of Goldberry, no one reports to or takes orders from Tom. He will solve little problems as he stumbles into them, but he is by no means dedicating his life to making things better for others.

Where Gandalf is.

Another thing of note, however strong Tom is, however often he says he is his own master, he seems to be subject to 'chance meetings'. In Middle Earth, the plans of the Valar or Ilúvatar are sometimes moved along by semi-random coincidence. Gandalf just happening to meet Thorin Oakenshield in Bree might be the classic example, triggering the events of The Hobbit. Certain people just happened to show up at Rivendell for Elrond's council. Very convenient, this subtle aspect of Middle Earth Magic, as one can do deus ex machina plot advances, implausible stuff happening, and blame it on the gods. But, anyway, just by coincidence, Tom wandered by just as Frodo needed him.

Random stuff. Some of the above might have been thought through by Tolkien, some of it not. It's hard to guess which.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Another thing of note, however strong Tom is, however often he says he is his own master, he seems to be subject to 'chance meetings'. In Middle Earth, the plans of the Valar or Ilúvatar are sometimes moved along by semi-random coincidence. Gandalf just happening to meet Thorin Oakenshield in Bree might be the classic example, triggering the events of The Hobbit. Certain people just happened to show up at Rivendell for Elrond's council. Very convenient, this subtle aspect of Middle Earth Magic, as one can do deus ex machina plot advances, implausible stuff happening, and blame it on the gods. But, anyway, just by coincidence, Tom wandered by just as Frodo needed him.

Well, Bombadil himself said of his meeting with the hobbits (quoting from memory), that "just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you".

That the encounter was "no plan of his", strongly suggests that there was indeed a deliberate intention for Bombadil to be at that place at that time, and he recognized the fact. That leads back to the idea that Tom, Ungoliant, and every being in Arda (or without!) did serve a Purpose, unclear though it might be for a very long time.

[Legolas]

Gandalf's comments about Tom are some of my favorite! Tom's character and purpose is fascinating, and contrary to so much else we see in the legendarium.

It might be tempting to expand the metaphor, but I don't think it was intended beyond it's simple, apparent meaning: Gandalf has been a constant wanderer while Tom a fellow quite content to stay in his own small corner of the world. More to do with mentality and purpose than it does origins and power.

Tom might be presented as greater than men, elves, etc. but I have not found anything to suggest that he is a being of such power on the order of Manwë. Much of his peculiar stature comes not from power, abilities, or active strength, but from his aloofness and resilience. For instance, he is not able to overpower the Ring; he is only immune because he is wholly unconcerned with anything it could offer him.

There are some revealing statements at the Council of Elrond that should be taken into consideration. Gandalf corrects Erestor's suggestion that Tom had a power over the Ring; Glorfindel and Galdor assert that Tom could not withstand Sauron.

'Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. 'It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'

'No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others.'

'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, 'to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

'I know little of Iarwain save the name,' said Galdor; 'but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills. What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?'

[Mumriken]

'No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others.'

Would a vala be able to break it's will over others? I don't think one should take what the elves says too seriously. They are after all just children in comparison to Gandalf. But then Gandalf says he is his own master, which once again suggests he is no maia. Because all maias were under some of the valas. So would any vala be able to break the power of the ring?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Tom might be presented as greater than men, elves, etc. but I have not found anything to suggest that he is a being of such power on the order of Manwë. Much of his peculiar stature comes not from power, abilities, or active strength, but from his aloofness and resilience. For instance, he is not able to overpower the Ring; he is only immune because he is wholly unconcerned with anything it could offer him.

Bombadil could have been an Ainu without being the equal of Manwë. After all, Manwë was the "Elder King", given the charge of moving along Ilúvatar's Themes.
As Mumriken notes, an inability to alter the Ring's influence over others doesn't preclude Tom's "divine" status either. It could be argued that Gandalf was more powerful than the Noldor who made Narya, yet there is no indication that its power as used by him was anything beyond what was put into it by its makers.

Originally Posted by Legolas

There are some revealing statements at the Council of Elrond that should be taken into consideration. Gandalf corrects Erestor's suggestion that Tom had a power over the Ring; Glorfindel and Galdor assert that Tom could not withstand Sauron.

I thought of the Council's words too. I wonder if they might be not explained by the notion of Tom's "outsider" status.
If he entered Arda apart from the Valar, though in nature a similar spirit, he would not have possessed the authority to affect the course of history in the World in the same manner as they did. The Valar were tasked to act as governors for the One. Perhaps Bombadil simply knew that it was not meant for him to meddle directly in ME events, save in very special circumstances. That would explain why he was so secluded, and unwilling to interact much with the Children of Ilúvatar.
Maybe if Tom had tried to guard the Ring, in essence doing Middle-earth's job for it, he would have been guilty of going too far in the eyes of the One, and perhaps would have been disciplined and allowed to fall to Sauron.

Speculation, of course, but it's fun.

[Az0g]

When I read LOTR I asked myself the same question. He seemed like an anomaly, who weren't supposed to be there, but I knew that Tolkien wouldn't have him appear in the books, if it weren't for a certain purpose. Now I know that the purpose, was to make the valar appear in Lord of The Rings, as a reference to his earlier work (Silmarillion). He wanted to involve a valar, without making it obvious but for the sake of his own amusement. Now you might say that I say this, without anything to back me up. But check out this link http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html
It explains all!