Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Mumriken]

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. However Gollum feared Sauron. Could one say the same of Morgoth/Sauron's relationship? If when Morgoth corrupted Mairon or Sauron to his side, was it out of fear Sauron joined him?

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal. Also there was no way Sauron could free Morgoth. So that he never tried to free Morgoth doesn't mean he wasn't loyal to him, because there was no way he could do that anyway so. I'm still going with this:

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal.

As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well. Surely otherwise he would have occupied himself with destroying the world in Morgoth's name rather than trying to take it over for himself. Consider when a prophet dies but his follower tries to carry on his work in the name of that prophet. I would consider that loyalty. But if the prophet dies and the follower abandons that work and starts a new one, that would be different. It's the same with Morgoth getting banished to the void: Sauron could carry on Morgoth's work in Morgoth's name, even though Morgoth is gone, but instead he sets about making himself a Dark Lord and ruling things his own way. What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.
But to change things up I thought I'd examine it from the other point of view anyway: in what ways was Sauron still following Morgoth? So I'll offer some different material from the Professor. Take this comment of Sauron's doings, for example, from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

So we can see that Morgoth's evil was certainly responsible for Sauron's relapse - that and his own nature, of course. Morgoth's Ring offers this consideration regarding Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-religion in Númenor:

there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.

Of course the Professor does qualify this:

But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time.

Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

[Belegorn]

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty. Morgoth had, "secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule." [MR, p. 52] He followed Morgoth, "because of his admiration of strength" and soon in the 2nd Age, "he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative" and then, "claimed to be Morgoth returned" at the end of the 3rd Age. Sauron, "represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible" [Letter 183]. In another letter we are told how Sauron is attached to Morgoth as Gandalf is to Manwe. Also as Gandalf was his opposite so was Manwe, Morgoth's.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. Akallabêth

The truth was the reverse, of course. Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

[Mumriken]

English isn't my first language so excuse my english anyway...

As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well.

Perhaps but remember Morgoth wasn't a nihilist at all times. Once he also wanted to rule over others. Also if by the end of his time in middle earth morgoth was a nihilist and truly wanted to destroy everything. Then there are two questions we must ask ourself:

1. Why did he not do so?
2. Why did not Sauron do this?

Is it possible that if Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, the reason Sauron did not follow in his footsteps was because he was unable do so? Sauron was far from as powerful as Morgoth, that is why he created the rings to control all others. Unlike Morgoth who could actually challenge all others and win! So I think it's a bit unfair that you say that in order for Sauron to have been loyal to Morgoth he must have done these things:

-Tried to free Morgoth (Impossible)
-Tried to destroy everything (Impossible for him)

You make it impossible for him to have been loyal to morgoth by saying that.

What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.

That is not a sign of being disloyal at all to Morgoth but to Eru.

Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Yes it's impossible for him to bring him back...
Yeah when he apparently did so it was for his own sake...whose other sake would it be for?? Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree. I still hold this view and your post has so far only encouraged me to do so.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree.[/B]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds, because it would mean that Sauron was carrying on in tribute and devotion to Morgoth, not for the sake of his own power and glory. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean it's an implausible motivation. That's what a loyal follower would do, even though the master was dead or absent. You yourself said:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about. Clearly by presenting this piece of evidence you yourself recognise that it is not unreasonable behaviour. The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Morgoth's Ring tells us that Sauron did indeed stay loyal to Melkor during the latter's imprisonment. He worked on rebuilding Angband, breeding Orcs and various other projects Melkor had started before his capture.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

[Mumriken]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds

Lol, only an idiot would do that. If that is the only way sauron could be loyal then men and elves would conquer middle earth the orcs would be slain and long gone. No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about.

No because later on it led to the destruction of Numenor.

The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

There is no question to ask...you don't get it buddy.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

He convinced them to worship Morgoth so that they would turn against the Valar...he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself. You say the only way he could be loyal is to put on a chastity belt and attract people to some stone temple where they would sit and pray to Morgoth all day and night...you don't think it's stupid but it indeed is...

I hope I don't have to paste this again...

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

Originally Posted by Mumriken

he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself

So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so,

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance).

He came to Morgoth's side due to the draw of power and the power he wielded under Morgoth.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Morgoth perpetuated lies among his servants all the time. All to his ends. Apparently from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Morgoth lied about himself similarly to the Edain. He said, "I am the Giver of Gifts" [MR, p. 346] He had them take him as Lord rather than Eru.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

Certainly Morgoth was not in Middle Earth at this time? Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. [/B]

what does this fixation with the giving of Rings tells us about the imaginary world of this particular Legendarium? how about our respective, thoughtful choice of Avatar names here? i'll suggest that it demonstrates that we understand precisely the point about languages in the linguistic sense - just as Tolkien himself knew by his fostering of this vision into the empirical world.


would the Timeless entity whom the Noldor tell us names himself Sauron demonstrate a similar Shadowy fealty to 'Melkor' that, say, Ungweliantë did?

[Mumriken]

Ungoliant was if not above Morgoth at least his equal. Unlike Sauron Morgoth could give Ungoliant little because Ungoliant wanted little. Sauron wanted much and therefore Morgoth had much to give and sauron loved him for it. Now this love might not be the same love you show towards your mother but it's still a form of love.

The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love. They fear him (and the Nazgûl) more than they feared their enemies.

Not really, before Sauron the orcs were small tribes with little but no power. Under Sauron many of them gained power. That doesn't mean they didn't fear him but I'd say it was a love/fear relationship. Not so different from the relationship most people have towards their teacher or boss. Just a bit more severe perhaps. Listen to your teacher and you will get good grades, do not listen to him and you will get bad grades. There is a bit of fear in that situation as well...however you love your teacher when he gives you good grades do you not?

If it was written somewhere that Sauron thought he was doing this deliberately to honour Morgoth I would agree with you. I guess I just don't believe that you can be "accidentally loyal". Loyalty in my opinion involves some element of deliberate decision-making.

And Sauron chose to join Morgoth, and he chose not to turn back to valinor after morgoth was captured. He chose to be loyal to Morgoth. He wouldn't be able to show his loyalty better.

Sauron wanted to rule Middle-earth and its inhabitants. Whether or not he had the power to destroy it/them isn't especially relevant: even if he could, he didn't want to.

As I said earlier, it doesn't matter if Sauron wanted order and Morgoth wanted chaos. The characters themself didn't think of themself as being order and chaos. It's only you who think of them that way therefore by "being order" Sauron didn't turn his back to Morgoth. However by destroying Numenor and doing what he did in the 2nd and 3rd ages he showed his loyalty to Morgoth.

The only way he could have been disloyal to morgoth would have been to go back to valinor. You must understand that all humanoids be them fictional or not need other people. If someone gives you something you want you like them, even "evil" beings are capable to love eachother. You might not recognize it as good because you consider them evil. If Tolkien thought Sauron was truly evil, well that is a biased position. Morgoth was truly evil, but Sauron...no I don't think so. If Sauron was the one thrown out and Morgoth remained I don't think Morgoth would care at all. However in Sauron there is still some admiration and love towards superior beings. Even if love is a strong word to use I think this is the case.

He was loyal to morgoth.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

If Tolkien thought Sauron was truly evil, well that is a biased position. Morgoth was truly evil, but Sauron...no I don't think so.

Well if we can't take Professor Tolkien's word for it I don't know what we can do. While he didn't believe in absolute evil, he thought that Sauron was about as close as you could get:

In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible. ~Letter 183.

This suggests to me that Sauron had gone beyond any capacity for a positive emotion like love or admiration. In the same letter he makes this remark:

Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.

This is the same quote which includes the note about him pretending to be Morgoth. It doesn't seem to leave much room for Morgoth in Sauron's heirarchy; if he was still loyal, wouldn't he have set up Morgoth as god (even though he was in the void, he could do it in tribute to him or the memory of him) and portrayed himself simply as a disciple? It seems that he wanted the glory for himself. I like to think that Professor Tolkien understood the motivations of his characters better than any of us.
However, in regards to Sauron admiring and admitting the love of superior beings, he wrote this (sorry for the big quote):

there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. ~Morgoth's Ring.

So I guess the Professor leaves it up to us to make up our own minds on the subject. We can look at it in two ways:
1. Sauron promoted Morgoth as a god because he still admired his superiority.
2. Sauron exploited the memory of Morgoth just to make himself powerful; it was pure manipulation and nothing more.
In the end there's some room for both points of view, although personally I find the second one more supportable and consistent with other examples from the texts. I guess the difference here is that I'm relying mostly on scrutiny of Professor Tolkien's writing rather than a broader view of the human condition (in so far as it applies to a non-human fictional character).

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Well if we can't take Professor Tolkien's word for it I don't know what we can do. While he didn't believe in absolute evil, he thought that Sauron was about as close as you could get

what makes you assume that this Legendarium is a closed, rather than an open code? that it can be translated only in terms of Monotheistic tradition, even if said subcreation clearly reflects in very many ways the unconscious ontology of Tolkien?

for the audience - what is this process and conversation saying to you?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

what makes you assume that this Legendarium is a closed, rather than an open code?

I suppose because Professor Tolkien termed it a "sub-creation" and he was the "sub-creator". As such while there are numerous undisclosed elements upon which we can only speculate, there are certain aspects made explicit in notes, letters and such about things which, were they referent to parts of the primary world we would consider subjective but which the "sub-creator" can describe objectively in regards to his "sub-creation". That's at least how I look at it. I know some people hold that only what we read in The Lord of the Rings can be taken at face value (and that not even The Hobbit and certainly not The Silmarillion, let alone other material, can be read as a completely accurate portrayal of the Professor's vision) but I find that to be a limiting notion. As far as I'm concerned if Professor Tolkien wrote it and it's not later contradicted anywhere by something he wrote then within the "sub-creation" of Middle-earth it's objectively true - unless he himself left it open for speculation, of course!

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I suppose because Professor Tolkien termed it a "sub-creation" and he was the "sub-creator". As such while there are numerous undisclosed elements upon which we can only speculate, there are certain aspects made explicit in notes, letters and such about things which, were they referent to parts of the primary world we would consider subjective but which the "sub-creator" can describe objectively in regards to his "sub-creation". That's at least how I look at it. I know some people hold that only what we read in The Lord of the Rings can be taken at face value (and that not even The Hobbit and certainly not The Silmarillion, let alone other material, can be read as a completely accurate portrayal of the Professor's vision) but I find that to be a limiting notion. As far as I'm concerned if Professor Tolkien wrote it and it's not later contradicted anywhere by something he wrote then within the "sub-creation" of Middle-earth it's objectively true - unless he himself left it open for speculation, of course!

and your speculative suppositions are, well, truthful

but i suppose this is like saying that all Signs can have only one meaning, now isn't it? but i will opine that, all Signs, all codes are infinitely fertile, and fecund, yes? inter-subjectively, naturally.

since when was creativity a one-way street? what would Belegûr have to say on that?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Ungoliant was if not above Morgoth at least his equal. Unlike Sauron Morgoth could give Ungoliant little because Ungoliant wanted little.

would her Name give to her to the exclusion of her will fealty to 'Melkor', being that he is the Source of Theological Evil - or is this naming process a reflection of the perceptual "toolkit" of Rúmil?