Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

Originally Posted by Mumriken

he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself

So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Ok let's point out where you're stupid then...

Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.

However what you could have done to show your appreciation for your husband, is to rape 500 people then burn down a police station and not get caught! You could drug the officials down and try to make them rape for you!!!

As much as I find this whole hypothetical scenario incredibly distasteful I understand what you mean. The point is: was Sauron doing all his evil things to show his appreciation for Morgoth? If he was, I would consider that loyal. However, I think he had more selfish motivations. Where is the evidence, actual quotes from Professor Tolkien's work, which says that Sauron did these things out of appreciation for Morgoth? He even qualifies the human sacrifice religion in Númenor as being probably founded out of convenience, not genuine appreciation. Incidentally, I don't consider generally evil actions to be "in appreciation" for Morgoth just because all evil ultimately derives from Morgoth. We need to distinguish between deliberate and incidental. If Sauron did what he did for Morgoth, deliberately wanting to do it because it's what Morgoth would have wanted or as tribute to him then I would consider that loyal. But if his activities just happened to coincide with what would have pleased Morgoth or what Morgoth would have wanted, but showing appreciation for Morgoth didn't actually play any role in Sauron's decision-making then I would not consider that to be loyal. I wouldn't consider it to be especially disloyal either. I'm just trying to muse on whether Sauron did what he did because he thought Morgoth would have approved. It's like after someone dies you do something "because it's what they would have wanted." It seems to me that Sauron was fairly neutral about Morgoth at best, and at worst considered him to be a failure who'd lacked the willpower and strength to bring about the order Sauron craved. Do you think Sauron was doing this stuff because it's what Morgoth would have wanted?
But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing:

By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

Evidently Morgoth was still an important figure in terms of enabling Sauron's control of much of Middle-earth. In regards to "the position of Morgoth's representative" does Professor Tolkien strictly mean in regards to the Númenoreans or did he do the same elsewhere he held dominion? Did the Men of Rhûn and the Harad know enough to distinguish between Morgoth and Sauron? Was Sauron able to pass himself off as Morgoth in the Third Age because the Men of Darkness worshipped a nebulous "Lord of the Dark", a role which Sauron could assume?
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing.

[Boromir88]

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[Mumriken]

You seem to make much out of the; Morgoth wanted chaos and destruction and Sauron wanted order. One could say that Sauron's being and Morgoth's being are slightly different. Before time Sauron was a servant of Aule the smith. But unlike Aule Sauron wanted things for himself. I discussed this in another thread but Aule is really the moral absolute in Arda since he created the dwarves then was willing to give them away. He created much and gave it all away. Not wanting to own things is at least in Tolkien's universe moral excellence. But Sauron wanted to own things and therefore turned to Morgoth because he admired his power and saw that through him he could order things and make himself OWN things. He wanted power and got it through Morgoth.

Now Morgoth didn't want things, he was already the most powerful being in Arda and had no need for things. He wanted to destroy what didn't derive from his music. Now Morgoth was eventually thrown out of the world. Now here Sauron had two choices to give up his power and control and return to Valinor. Or stay true to who he is or wanted to be...of course he is selfish and I bet if he could snap his fingers and all morgoth's power would be his he would. Howerver when Morgoth was captured and thrown out of the world I don't think Sauron was very pleased. All beings in our world and in the fictional are attached to someone. We need others...it's clear than Sauron needed Morgoth to become what he wanted to become. To be powerful and have control over others and order things to his liking.

So yes at the time of Morgoth's capture Sauron was loyal to him. Not out of fear but out of admiration for Morgoth and his ways of doing things. He stayed loyal to the very end and as far as I understand it he asked for pardon out of fear...for he saw the power of the valas. But now comes the big suprise, he didn't abandon Morgoth's ways. He deceived Numenor into worshipping Morgoth and later sail towards Valinor and later be crushed by the valas. TWO PARTS:

-Order
-Morgoth's way of achieving order

The only part of his being that isn't "loyal" to morgoth is that unlike morgoth he wanted order. However he chose Morgoth's ways of achieving order. Now that is being loyal to Morgoth in my opinion, since he could not free morgoth. Achieving his sense of order while destroying numenor and killing I don't know how many elves dwarves and men. He is being more loyal to Morgoth than to any other being in Arda by doing this. Loyal to himself?? What does that even mean, he even called himself the second Morgoth. Now if that isn't being loyal to morgoth I don't know what is. He would rather have Morgoth at his side than being alone that is for sure. The only reason he made the rings was because he could not win by force alone...while morgoth could.

I find the encounter Sauron's spirit had with Aule in lord of the rings most interesting. You know when Aule plays around with the ring? It's like Aule laughs at his old pupil...anyway if in your world the only way Sauron could show his loyalty towards sauron is to force slaves into worshipping him while elven cities are being built and slowly moving towards to east...then I'm not sure what you're thinking with. I think I'm done with this thread, I feel like I'm repeating myself now to no effect.

[Zigûr]

To me, following someone's methods does not constitute loyalty. Faithfulness to their cause or leadership does. In my opinion, judging by the Professor's exploration of Sauron and Morgoth's motives, Sauron shared Morgoth's methods but did not employ them in faithfulness to Morgoth or Morgoth's cause, but rather in the pursuit of his own self-interest. When it comes to loyalty, it appears to me that the intentions are crucial. Whether or not he would prefer to have Morgoth still around is pure conjecture which conflicts substantially with Professor Tolkien's suggestions that Sauron ultimately considered Morgoth to be a failure and viewed his absence as a great opportunity for personal aggrandisement.
Nonetheless I agree that the discussion appears to have run its course and I apologise if I have been repetitious.
Sadly an issue of semantics was not really what I was expecting to be the issue of this discussion. Also, I apologise that this thread has been a source of any difficulty.

[Mumriken]

Well then it's impossible for ANYONE to be loyal at all. Because all beings in our world and in the fictional have their own motives. Sauron was no slave to morgoth, he chose willingly to work with him. Also I find this notion of Sauron wanting order and Morgoth wanting chaos very...well unimportant. I mean let's imagine Morgoth sat in the void looking into the world at what Sauron was doing. Would he think:

"OH look, he is making those orcs stand in orderly lines...he isn't being loyal to me!!...look how he destroys numenor trying to achieve order and not destruction...he is so disloyal to me!!"

I think not, I think he would be pleased. Even if Sauron unlike Morgoth wanted order it doesn't matter. By forcing the numenoreans to worship morgoth and later naming himself the second morgoth he shows his admiration and loyalty to the devil who has been thrown out of the world and therefore Sauron no longer could serve...to become the second morgoth would be the most loyal thing he could possible be doing towards morgoth. That Saruon wanted some order and Morgoth wanted chaos is irrelevant, I also find it hard to imagine Morgoth or Sauron even thought of themself as order and chaos.

It's only to us who read the stories they appear in that way. Therefore I don't think it matters to the characters at all that one represents a form of order and the other a form of chaos. In the end Sauron remained a servant of morgoth and not to the other side. That is all that matters...I think the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth before you edited it was right. Maybe you should change it back eh? Spreading misinformation we are I think...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

to become the second morgoth would be the most loyal thing he could possible be doing towards morgoth.

In my opinion Sauron's masquerading as Morgoth more comes across as potentially "blasphemous" (although I realise we are talking about the bad guy here) than a show of loyalty. If he was so loyal to Morgoth would he be pretending to be Morgoth? Wouldn't he have just kept claiming to be his representative? I guess that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but it doesn't seem like Sauron did any of these things because he thought Morgoth would approve. That's what matters - what did Sauron think about what he was doing? Did he consider it a tribute to Morgoth or did he now only care about himself?
As we have already seen, Professor Tolkien considered Sauron encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth something he did out of convenience, not out of respect for his former master.

I think not, I think he would be pleased.

This doesn't matter. Sauron's loyalty is dependent upon Sauron's intentions alone, not whether or not Morgoth would be pleased. That's incidental. Was Sauron trying to please Morgoth? The evidence doesn't seem to suggest that Sauron cared. If he cared, he would be loyal, but it doesn't seem that he cared any more about Morgoth beyond as a phantom he could use to scare and manipulate people. That doesn't mean he's disloyal, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it means he was still trying to do what Morgoth wanted.

Spreading misinformation we are I think...

Sorry, I was kind of misrepresenting myself when I said that. Actually, I was cleaning up a lot of misinformation someone else was spreading, and replacing it with references to published material. The only editing I made on Wikipedia was to alter explicit statements that claimed as fact that Sauron faithfully propagated Morgoth's cult in places other than Númenor without providing any evidence from Professor Tolkien's writing to support it. The fact that we cannot agree on it suggests to me that stating it as cold hard fact would be misleading. I also took the opportunity to make Morgoth's legacy more explicit with annotations referring the reader to the same evidence from Morgoth's Ring and the Letters as has been used here. The article formerly made this claim:

Sauron always remained faithful in his allegiance to Melkor; as Sauron expanded his empire into new lands, with it he would also spread a cult devoted to Melkor-worship, promising that one day he would return from the Void. Temples dedicated to Melkor were built by Sauron's servants throughout Rhûn and Haradwaith, where human sacrifice was practiced.

Where does Professor Tolkien write anywhere that Sauron promised his subjects that Morgoth would return? Where does he even state that he established human sacrifice cults anywhere besides Númenor? Whoever wrote that hadn't provided any references and I certainly couldn't find anything to support it. That was what I objected to. I never wrote anything to say that Sauron became disloyal or that he rebelled against Morgoth or anything of that sort. There was also this:

even by the end of the Third Age, the Cult of Melkor was effectively the "state religion" of Mordor

As far as I can tell this is almost entirely invention on someone's part, and they completely contradict elements of Professor Tolkien's own writing. Consider this from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.

Sauron set himself up as god to the Easterlings and the Haradrim, not Morgoth; he wasn't in the weak position he'd been in with the Númenoreans and was an egotist and wanted to be worshipped. What I objected to was what appeared to be someone basically extrapolating Sauron's activities in Númenor to the whole of Middle-earth without evidence and despite evidence in direct contradiction of those claims; this can be the trouble with things like Wikipedia. The main ambiguity I can find is this issue of Sauron pretending to be Morgoth in the Third Age. That kind of muddles the issue of how Sauron was worshipped; perhaps he just conflated himself with Morgoth because the Men of Darkness didn't know the difference.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Well then it's impossible for ANYONE to be loyal at all. Because all beings in our world and in the fictional have their own motives. Sauron was no slave to morgoth, he chose willingly to work with him. Also I find this notion of Sauron wanting order and Morgoth wanting chaos very...well unimportant. I mean let's imagine Morgoth sat in the void looking into the world at what Sauron was doing. Would he think:

Not necessarily. As I've pointed out with Sam, it was his loyalty to Frodo which was a factor in his rejection of the Ring. You could say it was Faramir's loyalty in doing the same as well.

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I find the encounter Sauron's spirit had with Aule in lord of the rings most interesting. You know when Aule plays around with the ring?

??? What on Earth are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Mumriken

if in your world the only way Sauron could show his loyalty towards sauron [sic] is to force slaves into worshipping him while elven cities are being built and slowly moving towards to east...then I'm not sure what you're thinking with.

Must I repeat myself? Mumriken, there is nothing in Zigur's posting to warrant the insults you've been directing at him. Stop it.

[Mumriken]

Nerwen could you please stop whatever you're doing. Not sure what you're thinking with isn't an insult. Just a way to point out that I don't agree with him. This conversation is civil, you are just sensitive.

??? What on Earth are you talking about?

Well my personal belief is that Tom's Aule. See "Gandalf on Bombadil" for more info on that...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

That is all that matters...I think the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth before you edited it was right. Maybe you should change it back eh? Spreading misinformation we are I think...

Just a hunch– and you don't have to answer if you don't want to– Mumriken, were you, by any chance "the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth" in the Wikipedia article. Is that what this is all about? A Wikipedia edit-war?

Anyway, whether that's so or not, your position is not, to my mind, so very self-evident that no right-thinking person could fail to agree with it– as seems to be your own belief. While you've made some valid points, much of your case appears to rely on simply stating that you're right and other people are wrong.

Edit: X'd with Mumriken.

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement– but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.