Two Questions about Gandalf in the Undying Lands - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 08-07-2012, 06:42 AM

Before I go any further I am well aware these are more along the lines of speculative rather than factual questions, since I don't think that Tolkein wrote much of the more intimate details of the Fellowships post-grey havens lives. And indeed the day to day affiairs of the people of Aman may be "beyond mortal ken". But I think these may at least provoke a little discussion.

1. If I recall part of the deal with the mortal sailors is that, while they are allowed to be in Tol Eressea, they are not allowed to go to Valinor proper. But this stricture would not apply to Gandalf himself. So my question is as follows; once the boat got to Tol Erresea, do you think Gandalf stayed around there for a while (defined as "until Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimi died) or did he immediately head off for Aman itself. On one hand, he might stick around so that the hobbits and gimli wold have some familar faces around. After all Frodo and Co. dont reallty know a lot of the other people there. They know Elrond, they know Galdriel and that's really it (unless Bilbo in his sojurnment in Rivendell got to be on friendly terms with some of the members of Elrond's court who either sailed before or with (I still maintain that Elrond, Gadriel, Gandalf and two hobbits is a rather small crew to sail a grey havens boat (especially as neither hobbit probably knows much of sailing) (Yes, Legolas manages with a crew of two, but he built his boat so he probably bult a smaller one than an official "grey havens special" so I think they may have been other elves on the boat of lesser importance (members of Elronds, Galdriels and Cirdan's courts also making the journey) to do the actual crew work. I'm sure Tol Erresea is wodnerful, but I can easily imagine the hobbits feeling a little alienated without familar faces around, and Gandalf might very well, decide to stick around to keep them company.
On the other hand, Gandalf is a Maiar, and as such Valinor is his home, not Tol Erresea. I Imagine he misses his friends back there (the unfinished tales say Alatar took Pallando as a friend on the trip there, so it is obvios that Maiar do form attachments between each other.) He may miss his home in Manwe's gardens and seeing Irmo and Nienna. He may want some insight into what happened to Alatar and Pallando (assuming the Valar know) or on what the Valar plan to do with Radagast (leave him be as is in ME? Take away his immortality and let him die? give him a second chance to make it back?) I suppose this isn't really an either/or choice (Gandalf go stay in one place and visit the other frequently) but it is worth consideration.

2. Once he gets to the Undying lands, does Gandalf stay....well....Gandalf. The Unfished Tales say the Ishatri came to Middle Earth in the guise of old men, which seems to indicate that that is not their default appearance (I know maiar can shapeshif in thier non-incarnate state, but the meetings between them and the rest of the people seem to indicate that most have some body form that is a preferred "default" one. Presumaby, now that Gandalfs mission is over, and he is no longer under the strictures of the mission, he is no longer obligated to keep that form. So do you think he does. I can sort of imagine him keeping it as long as Frodo and Bilbo are around, for the same reason I stated above for him possibly sticking around Tol Erresea, so they have something familar. But has Gandalf gotten so used to being Gandalf that that is how he will stay, or will he turn back into whatever he looked like when he was Olorin?

08-07-2012, 06:42 AM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Two Questions about Gandalf in the Undying Lands Before I go any further I am well aware these are more along the lines of speculative rather than factual questions, since I don't think that Tolkein wrote much of the more intimate details of the Fellowships post-grey havens lives. And indeed the day to day affiairs of the people of Aman may be "beyond mortal ken". But I think these may at least provoke a little discussion. 1. If I recall part of the deal with the mortal sailors is that, while they are allowed to be in Tol Eressea, they are not allowed to go to Valinor proper. But this stricture would not apply to Gandalf himself. So my question is as follows; once the boat got to Tol Erresea, do you think Gandalf stayed around there for a while (defined as "until Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimi died) or did he immediately head off for Aman itself. On one hand, he might stick around so that the hobbits and gimli wold have some familar faces around. After all Frodo and Co. dont reallty know a lot of the other people there. They know Elrond, they know Galdriel and that's really it (unless Bilbo in his sojurnment in Rivendell got to be on friendly terms with some of the members of Elrond's court who either sailed before or with (I still maintain that Elrond, Gadriel, Gandalf and two hobbits is a rather small crew to sail a grey havens boat (especially as neither hobbit probably knows much of sailing) (Yes, Legolas manages with a crew of two, but he built his boat so he probably bult a smaller one than an official "grey havens special" so I think they may have been other elves on the boat of lesser importance (members of Elronds, Galdriels and Cirdan's courts also making the journey) to do the actual crew work. I'm sure Tol Erresea is wodnerful, but I can easily imagine the hobbits feeling a little alienated without familar faces around, and Gandalf might very well, decide to stick around to keep them company. On the other hand, Gandalf is a Maiar, and as such Valinor is his home, not Tol Erresea. I Imagine he misses his friends back there (the unfinished tales say Alatar took Pallando as a friend on the trip there, so it is obvios that Maiar do form attachments between each other.) He may miss his home in Manwe's gardens and seeing Irmo and Nienna. He may want some insight into what happened to Alatar and Pallando (assuming the Valar know) or on what the Valar plan to do with Radagast (leave him be as is in ME? Take away his immortality and let him die? give him a second chance to make it back?) I suppose this isn't really an either/or choice (Gandalf go stay in one place and visit the other frequently) but it is worth consideration. 2. Once he gets to the Undying lands, does Gandalf stay....well....Gandalf. The Unfished Tales say the Ishatri came to Middle Earth in the guise of old men, which seems to indicate that that is not their default appearance (I know maiar can shapeshif in thier non-incarnate state, but the meetings between them and the rest of the people seem to indicate that most have some body form that is a preferred "default" one. Presumaby, now that Gandalfs mission is over, and he is no longer under the strictures of the mission, he is no longer obligated to keep that form. So do you think he does. I can sort of imagine him keeping it as long as Frodo and Bilbo are around, for the same reason I stated above for him possibly sticking around Tol Erresea, so they have something familar. But has Gandalf gotten so used to being Gandalf that that is how he will stay, or will he turn back into whatever he looked like when he was Olorin?