Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Something has just occurred to me: why didn't Saruman try to take Narya from Gandalf when he imprisoned him? Was he not aware that he had it? I know he was made jealous by someone's comment "Not as the last" (can't remember it exactly, but it was to the effect that Gandalf might in fact prove the greatest of the Istari, and Saruman heard it and resented it).

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

Originally Posted by Cirdan

'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

Ah ok very good there seems to be sources of information that I have not yet acquainted myself with, so did Cirdan end up giving the ring to him and did it explain why?

[Pervinca Took]

For the reasons in Blantyr's second quote.

Maybe Saruman never knew Gandalf had the Third Ring, or maybe he thought it inconsequential, as the Three were not made to help the Bearers control others.

Did Tolkien ever call Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond Ringbearers? The first time I heard them referred to as such was in the BBC radio dramatisation - when Gandalf said "I too am a Ringbearer."

BTW, great first post, Radtech51!

[Legolas]

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But there were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.'

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:

"But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task should prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

Manwë replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

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Originally Posted by Radtech51

So we know that it was Saruman’s task to learn everything he could about the rings of power, we also know that Saruman’s knowledge of the craft was very extensive. According to JRR Tolkien himself there existed a very real possibility of him finding the lost lore he needed and creating his own greater ring of power.

Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have not been lost, and they endure no evil.

Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.

Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
________

Originally Posted by Radtech51

A: Did Gandalf, Galadriel or Elrond ever even use there rings of power to become invisible?
Surely we know that all 20 greater rings of power had this ability, so I’m going to assume that every one of the wielders except for the Hobbits knew how to control this power.

I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
________

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Why didn’t the ring wraiths ever use there rings to become invisible in the books?

A: They most surely had in the beginning which is why the ring wraiths now walk in the twilight land permanently and are almost all but invisible to anyone looking upon them directly. I’m also going to assume that they could have used there rings in the story to make themselves completely invisible but didn’t see the need to do it.

In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.

We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.'

[Pervinca Took]

I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.

Gandalf: "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Rings of Power, does not die, but neither does he grow or obtain more life ... and if he often uses it to become invisible, he fades; he becomes in the end permanently invisible ...."

I think they conferred invisibility, but to mortals only.

I think there was a discussion on the LOTR Plaza a while ago to the effect that the invisibility factor was possibly a mere by-product/unintended additional effect of the production of the rings, not a specific purpose in design.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

---------------------------

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Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:



As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

----------------------------

----------------------------

________


Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

-----------------------------

-----------------------------

Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

------------------------------

------------------------------

Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.
-------------------------------

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Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
________

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I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
________

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I believe this would also explain the ability for each ring to become invisible on the wielders hand if they wished it. I might be wrong but this is the way I interpreted it, I never came across any document that I can recall that stated that the ability of invisibility was only granted to the one ring and not the others.
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In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.
--------------------------------

We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

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[Aragrax]

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.


Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.


Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

[Mumriken]

I have always found the rings to be quite dull and uninteresting in the Tolkien mythology. However I do wonder if invisibility was given to every race that wore Sauron's ring. Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were all hobbits and besides Isildur were the only ones who put on the ring. The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book. If it isn't one can assume the ring amplifies the power that is already within the person/creature that is wearing it. It's a bit of Sauron's spirit put into the wielder.

If this is true one could speculate as to what would happen if different characters in the story put on the ring. Like what would happen if an elf or a dwarf put it on. What would happen if one of the maias put it on!? Saruon put some of his power into the ring, so to put it on he would only become whole. While Gandalf for example putting it on would amplify his maia spirit with that of sauron's. How many maiar makes a vala?

That Tom Bombadil made the ring dissapear and when Frodo put it on still could see him suggests to me he is a vala. If not Aule, the ruler of all matter then some unknown vala of unknown strength. Anyway I find this Tom Bombadil creature to be very interesting, Tolkien said he put Bombadil into the story as a important comment. Why so important? I know it's off topic but all topics seem to lead to the ultimate and most interesting mystery within the lord of the rings.

[Legolas]

Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.
____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:

And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion)

They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

At length therefore he [Sauron] resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved by their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his master. (The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales)

I do not think they could have attacked [Frodo with the One Ring at Weathertop] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. (#246, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien)

So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. (Gandalf to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. (Galadriel to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)

[Pervinca Took]

The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book.

It is. The ring treacherously slips from his finger when he jumps into the Anduin, and that is why he is killed - because the orcs see him and shoot him.

[jallanite]

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):

And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:

But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

[Radtech51]

[QUOTE=Legolas;673149]Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.

Reply:

You might be right although I still get the impression that this was a task appointed to him by the white council, at the very least agreed upon by them.

____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Reply:

Why did Sauron seek the hidden three then? Or why keep them Secret? Especially if one knows the hidden three could never be used for evil purposes?

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!

Reply:

If Gandolf did indeed think the fight would have been in vain then I suspect he thought he would have lost the fight. Otherwise why risk being taken captive and Saruman finding the ring? I'm convinced that you are correct, Gandolf had thought they if he resisted Saruman he would have been killed no doubt it, and then for sure the ring would have fallen into his hands. To become Saruman's captive was the only choice at hand in his mind.
If Saruman was to try and take the ring from Gandolf I suspect Gandolf would not and could not have resisted without being killed, ring of no ring Gandolf allowed himself to be taken captive because he had no other choice. So I remain puzzled why Saruman did not take Galdolf's ring other then the fact he still thought he could have persuaded Gandolf in joining him and by taking Gandolf's ring would have destroyed any chance of that in his mind.
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:


They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

Reply:

I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?

.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Aragrax

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.

Reply:

Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.

Reply:

Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

Reply:

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

Reply:

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

Reply:

I did not know that about Prof. Tolkien although it does not surprise me.

.