Werewolf XCVII: Werewolves in the Westfold Game Thread

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The only thing that looks certain, from Inzil's posts, is that Sally is innocent. That's... helpful.

I would also propose that Inzil was trying to buddy up with Pitch, early in Day Two. I get the feeling from this interaction that Pitch is innocent. Add to that list Coppermirror and G55, due to their votes for Nessa, and my guess for third wolf is the one left over:

Shasta.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The only thing that looks certain, from Inzil's posts, is that Sally is innocent. That's... helpful.

Or, you know, from Kit's post.

Can it be true though? Could my psychic flaming wolf boy be....well, a psychic flaming wolf boy? My partner in song, tell me it's not true!

Actually, toDay is going to be rather horrid for me; I'll have but a couple of hours this evening to really read through things, and I doubt I'll be able to be on my laptop at all. I'll make a list this afternoon and try to post it before I head off to my evening plans. Let us get the last wolf toDay so that I may be alive to claim the victory with you. For Kit!

[Galadriel55]

O the horror of it all! Kitannadagast, I shall weave the tragic tale of your end into my tapestries, so that your heroic deeds will be remembered forever!



My suspicion list at the moment is a copy of mirror's, except that just switch my name around with hers. I shall take a look at Shasta, Pitch, and Eomer.

[Galadriel55]

I only quoted the posts I think important. And I only read the thread up to my last post; I refreshed the thread and saw that Pitch (and perhaps others) posted after it, but I want to post this first and then read new posts.


Shasta

DAY1:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Funnily enough, I was going to say relatively the same thing... only replacing your name with Eomer's. Hmm. I do need to vote (I'm about to hit the hay), so I think I'm going to go ahead and vote for -

++Nessa

There were only two votes at that point, both for Kit. This vote for Nessa looks more like a psychic at work than a wolf bussing a mate.

DAY2:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Right, I'm here, and reading. Bit of luck on the Nessa vote - I noted someone else had seen what I'd seen about her, and something was telling me "bad!" and I had to vote, so. I apologize for my relative lack of being here. I'll do better.

Sounds realistic enough.

#112 is long and my comments short. Just a few remarks, replying to the other's comments. Asks for a few clarifications. Doesn't like sally's post.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Right, so, we've got Kitanna versus Inzil for today. I'm going to go back and look at Day 1 - although, interestingly, a Kitwolf would know all the innocents in the village, plus, this is a prime opportunity to mess with the village's mind should she be lynched (she tells us Person A is a dreamt innocent, dies a wolf. Was she trying to protect Person A (her packmate)? Was she trying to get them lynched via WIFOM? etc.)

It's weird to me that a Kitwolf wouldn't just go ahead and say someone was innocent. Whereas a frustrated innocent Kit might just be contrary because she's not being believed.

I entirely agree with this post, and this was part of my reasining for voting Zil yesterDay. Aside from that, I think that if Shasta is the last wolf he was rather mean to Zil. Had he not so obviously chose Kit as Seer here and continued with this attitude, he could have likely saved his mate. I know Shasta isn't the kind to feel bad about bussing mates, especially those that will be dead anyway the next Day at the latest, but the Kitwagon was going well and he could have bought Zil another Day with little risk to himself. This post basically changed the vote pattern around. (There was one vote for Zil and 3 for Kit at that point). This makes me think of Shasta as more innocent.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

#15 - Inzil says Kit strikes him as "a bit off, but it's really a thin thing."

#22 - Inzil on Kit again - "some ill-defined feeling of unease"

#23 - Kit wants a reason for Inzil's suspicion.

#24 - Inzil mentions "the feel of the first couple posts."

#48 - Inzil - "It is a bit suspicious the way Sally latched onto what I said about Kit. Funny thing is, I was trying earlier to bait the hook with Coppermirror, not Kit."

#49 - Inzil votes Kit.

#52 - Kit - "I'll probably vote for Zil at this point. Because I don't like his "Kit strikes me as a bit off, but it's really a thin thing." and "I was trying earlier to bait the hook with Coppermirror, not Kit.""

#62 - Kit votes Inzil.

Conclusion - Well, it does look like a standard Seer lead-up on Inzil's part, and Kit does look a bit retaliatory, as though she's realized she's in trouble. But if that's so, and Kitwolf did realize Inzilgast had dreamt her, why not kill Inzil last night?

No comment.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Which means I'll be casting a deciding(ish) vote.

However, it's an easy one at this stage of the game.

++Inzil

Besides everything that's left me in favor of Kit as the real Seer, G55 (should she return) was already planning a vote for Inzil. Tying it up would be silly.

It was 3-3 when Shasta voted.




Eomer

DAY1:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do agree with Nerwen's last post. Problem is that it's a smart post for a wolf to make. Given Inzil's suspicion of Kitanna, especially the nature of that suspicion (based on 'feel') any subsequent vote for Kitanna is going to be scrutinised.

Would a wolf-Sally walk into that, though? Probably not, though maybe.

It's a really small village and the wolves could win quickly. They could be trying a bold manoeuvre. Say, wolf-Inzil spies their first victim (Kitanna made early posts) and sets it up for Sally to make the vote. Nerwen then jumps in to criticise that vote.

We could be looking at a move here. Inzil plus either Sally or Nerwen as packmates.

So two of these are proven ordos and one is a proven wolf. I can see an Ordomer guess one out of three, and I can also see a Wolfomer throw a packmate into a list of suspects.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

At the risk of defending her and creating a sort of 'faction', there's something weird about Inzil's insistence on Kitanna. Trying to bait Coppermirror but ending up with Kit? I've just re-read the thread and I don't really see it.

Also, not at all clear how he feels he can judge Nerwen or Nessa's role by discovery of Kitanna's.

Eomer insists on questioning Inzil. I haven't played with him as a wolf yet, but I imagine he would have no trouble dumping a mate into deep water. This would make Wolfomer look good later if Inzilafolf is lynched: Eomer casts some doubt on him ("see, I suspected him too!") but at such a time when it was safe to do so.

Yet the above scenario is also a bit of a stretch. It could just be Ordomer suspecting a wolf.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

If he had picked on innocent Kitanna, though, Inzil has vowed to go after Sally. So it seems unlikely that, if he's wolvish, that Sally is too.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I don't like either of the two votes for Nessa NOR do I like Nessa's vote for Pitch.

Votes Sally. This vote would fit in nicely with the scenario of a Wolfomer casting just enough suspicion on Zil to make the survivor look innocent should one of them be lynched. First he makes a combination of Zil-sally-Nerwen. Goes after Zil. Decides Zil and sally can't be wolves together. Votes Sally. Very cleanly done, if he's a wolf. And if he's not, that's also possible.

What picks me is that the two players with the most votes (Kit and Nessa) barely got a mention from him. All Day. Even at the end of the Day when all the talk was about them. I don't love the fixation on Inzil and sally.

DAY2:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

As I was asked about it, I will explain why I didn't like the first two votes for Nessa.

Nessa's post #42 is where it all fell apart for her, which I find.... rather fortuitous. She comments that she suspected Sally's actions in jumping onto Inziladun's train of thought, and voting for Kitanna.

To my mind, there is nothing suspicious here. Wasn't everyone a bit suspicious of what Sally did? But then Nerwen (proven innocent now) suspects Nessa from this, and Shasta jumps in with a vote. Coppermirror then votes for Nessa too, albeit with a better reason (Nessa's vote for Pitch). Coppermirror then clarified that the earlier 'suspicion' of Nessa was not a deciding factor, and so I look more favourably on her now.

G55's vote makes her look very innocent, that's true. I am less inclined to drop my guard around Shasta, however.

Ok.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Inziladun,

Looking back.... I'm not really sure how I got confused!

So, to clarify: you did not really suspect Coppermirror, but were trying to hook a wolf into that particular net. Nothing came of it.

Your suspicion of Kitanna was genuine, and it inadvertently snared someone (Sally: whether good or evil we don't know, of course).

Apologies for being slow!

However, this does nothing to stop me from thinking your suspicion of Kitanna is weird.

So keeps Zil hanging out there in the middle. Neither here nor there.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Whichever one it is, there will be connexions to analyse from Day One: both Kitanna and Inzil were in the thick of things. And considering that first days are often uneventful and lacking in content, I'm glad our Seer battle is between these two!

Hmm.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Would it not be likely that, were Kitanna a wolf, they would have killed obvious-Seer Inzil last night? I'm inclined to believe Kitanna at this stage. But it doesn't really matter because they'll both be dead by tomorrow. We need to find the third wolf.

For my money, Coppermirror and G55 are probably innocent. Their votes for Nessa were crucial.

Just like Shasta, Eomer takes Kit's side when there's still a chance to save Zil. But now less of a chance; Shasta and I all but voted already. So this post does not necessarily speak in favour of Eomer innocence.

Also, I don't like the "it doesn't matter" attitude. I think it matters very much if we get a wolf earlier rather than later.

#129 - Votes Zil.

DAY3:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The only thing that looks certain, from Inzil's posts, is that Sally is innocent. That's... helpful.

I would also propose that Inzil was trying to buddy up with Pitch, early in Day Two. I get the feeling from this interaction that Pitch is innocent. Add to that list Coppermirror and G55, due to their votes for Nessa, and my guess for third wolf is the one left over:

Shasta.

Ok.





Pitchie

DAY2:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Seriously, sorry for doing a Kath yesterDay and thanks to Shasta, Cop and Gal for foiling Nessa Fenrinya's attempt on my unprotected life. Speaking of which, I wonder how much hope she had it would succeed - I mean, there had been some talk of submarine-hunting earlier, but lynching somebody who's in danger of modfire anyway would be considered a wasted lynch in most villages, especially one so small.

If, however, she felt she could afford to make a throwaway vote, there must either have been some chance of lynching an innocent at the time she voted - which would speak for Kit and against sally and/or Zil - , or her packmates hadn't voted yet and she was leaving things in their hands - which would point to those who voted after but not for her, i.e. Kit and Eomer (disregarding for now the possibility of wolf-on-wolf votes).

Now if the latter is true and Kit is one of the wolves, that would mean there were two wolves in danger of being lynched yesterDay and no innocent bandwagon to fall back on; which would explain the lack of any concerted attempt to save Nessa. But in this case I'd have expected to find Zil dead toDay instead of Nerwen.

* * *

Good questions both, I'd like to hear that too. But Cop, why did you think Nerwen a possible seer?

Neutral observations, imo. Doesn't say anything particular about role.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Or, as she was already gathering suspicion at the time, she might have voted for packmate-Pitch in order to make me look good in case she ended up lynched; except she didn't because I ain't.

Objective observation or a self-deprecating wolf?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Um, why would she want to distance herself from the lynching of a wolf? Doesn't make sense to me (unlike the rest of your reasoning here).


The thing is, everything she said against Nessa or other people was based on sound reasoning, and nothing looks to me like it was arrived at by Nightly inspiration. Trailless kill seems much more likely to me.

(x-ed with Kit and Cop. )

True.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

She's not saying she thinks, she says she knows.

Kit, when did you gain this knowledge?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Also, since you'll be dead toMorrow, I think it would be a good idea to tell us your other dream and give us a known innocent (assuming you didn't dream another wolf, in which case I'd think you'd have said so).

So far so good again. Nothing role-revealing.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Kit, if you're the true Seer and know a living innocent, name them, for Eru's sake! You'll be dead toMorrow either way, but a known innocent means one person less the wolves can get lynched, one more they'll have to use a Night-kill on, one person we know has no ulterior motives in what they say, one more chance for us to lynch a wolf. Withholding this benefit from us just because we don't trust you blindly would be dereliction of duty in a Seer.

All right, so yesterDay that post got me into a mood that really went not in Pitchie's favour. The reason for that is that I've seen almost exact copies of that post said by wolves who want to avoid any extra interaction that may get them under suspicion, or to hide the fact that they have extra knowledge behind the convenient situation that now everyone knows it.

Now, though, as I reread the thread I can see a reason for an innocent Pitch to be so passionate about it. Kit didn't say she'll wait a bit before giving the name. She said she won't give it to a village that doesn't trust her, which, from a certain point of view, could sound ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hm, I must say you did strike me as the most seerish-looking person in this village exactly because of the vagueness of your suspicion.

Let's not be hasty though. I seem to remember I helped to lynch a seer Kit once, I'd be loath to repeat that mistake. But I must say her "I know a living innocent but I'm not going to tell you" attitude isn't exactly trust-inspiring.

Would that not be a convenient post for a wolf to make? "I don't like it, so that's my excuse for when she turns out innocent, but I'll vote her anyway since she, after all, is more suspicious and less believable and etc [insert "reasons"]".

But on the other hand, again, Pitch could just be an innocent who believed Zil but had a genuine bad feeling about lynching Kit.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

And if we lynch Zil and find him genuine, the point will be moot anyway, is that it?

That's said about Kit's refusal to name the dreamed innocent.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I have to vote now, as it's bedtime for me and I most likely won't be able to come online again before DL (which is near the end of my workday).

I hate this whole situation, and if Kit's a wolf, she does the angry frustrated innocent part really well. Also I concur with some of her analyses, most notably those of Cop (whom I think more probably innocent, however) and Eomer (funny, since I considered him a likely packmate for a Kitwolf earlier).

How likely is it, though, that a Zilwolf just happened to random-suspect our seer, of all people, in a seerish-looking way? Also, how much danger of getting lynched toDay was Kit really in prior to her reveal? (Yes, I mentioned her as a possible packmate of Nessa's in my first post, and the thought that Zil was the seer and had dreamed her had crossed my mind, but his continuing existence among the living cast a lot of doubt on that.) What I'm saying is wolvish guilt may have led her to underestimate her chances.

I really think it makes more sense the other way 'round, and Kitwolf is sacrificing herself in order to take down the seer before he can dream her last packmate.

Therefore
++Kitanna

Zil, if you're a wolf, well done. Kit, if you're a wolf, that was a brave attempt; if you're the real seer, may we meet in the flesh some day so you can slap me to your heart's content.

Can't tell much about the intentions behind the words from the arguments; they are true and most things are taken in consideration. The vote for Kit could be cast by a confused ordo (sally's there too) or a knowing wolf. But it works just a bit too well if Pitch is the last wolf who was trying to save his mate, and since he voted early it explains why no one gave the final push to the Kitwagon. Unless the remaining wolf is bold and confident enough to sacrifice Zil just in case, even when there was a good chance of saving him.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Just a note before I leave:

Shasta voted Nessa before she voted me. He was laconic enough about his reasons, but if I understand him right, he was going exclusively on the latching-on point mentioned by Nerwen.

A correction. Quite true.




Anyways, I still don't have a clear picture of who might be the last wolf, but Pitch and Eomer seem to me more likely choices than Shasta.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Or, you know, from Kit's post.

That's the joke.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I would also propose that Inzil was trying to buddy up with Pitch, early in Day Two.

He didn't have to. In case it isn't clear, I finished reading Day One's proceedings thinking that he was probably the Seer who had dreamed a Kitwolf (as may have been intented by his "ill-defined feeling of unease" and voting her on such vague grounds); only if that was true, the wolves would have spotted him and killed him instead of Nerwen (Shasta, I hope this answers your question in #112). When Kit revealed and he counter-revealed, I thought this could be an alternative wolf plan to get rid of him. Obviously not.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I get the feeling from this interaction that Pitch is innocent.

That is of course nice to hear, but are you sure you aren't trying the same tactic you just ascribed to Zil?

[Pitchwife]

OK, so the unknowns from my perspective are (in alphabetical order) Cop, Eomer, Gal and Shasta. The last wolf has to be one of these four.

For the record, I don't like all the hullabaloo Cop made about herself and Gal being innocent based on their roles in slaying Nessa, never failing to associate the two of them, which has a whiff of wolf buddying up to innocent. Also, her explanation of how she came to vote Nessa in #67 would sound wolvish like hell if Nessa hadn't been a wolf herself (more or less "Hm, I need someone to suspect, I think I'll pick Nessa. O look, she's done something suspicious! Great, I can vote her now!")
On the other hand, her D1 vote tied Nessa with Kit, and her D2 vote was the second for Zil after three for Kit. I have a hard time imagining a newbie wolf cub making two such brazen wolf-on-wolf votes in a row, and am therefore inclined to believe her innocent and chalk the passage in #67 up to noobishly awkward wording.

(to be continued)

[Pitchwife]

Eomer
His dislike of both the Nessa votes and Nessa'sown vote, maintaining a conveniently neutral position, as well as his throwaway vote for sally on D1 could fit the third wolf. His first reaction to the two seer-reveals was pretty non-committal (#100), but later he argued in Kit's favour (#127) and ended up voting Zil, tying him with Kit at three votes each.

Now I know (unlike the rest of you) that Zil's and Nessa's packmate did the sensible thing yesterDay and voted the dreamed wolf, leaving it to two innocents to try to lynch the revealed Seer; so the only thing about the D2 votes we can draw conclusions from is the time they were made and how they changed the tally. That said, I highly doubt a wolf would tie their packmate with the seer -

- although, like Eomer said himself in #127, it didn't matter because they'd both be dead anyway (even if Kit had been lynched, Zil would be lynched toDay), and the wolf would of course want to make xemself look good, so it would actually be a sensible thing to do from both perspectives. Garrrh.

It's difficult to reach a conclusion about him, but if I limit the amount of overthinking I'm willing to engage in, he does look better toDay than he did early yesterDay. As to his suspecting Shasta over me, I can only say it seems a very Eomerish thing.

(to be continued)

* * *

PS. Where is everybody else, by the way? Looks like I may end up quadruple-posting...

[Pitchwife]

Galadriel, the 55th of her name
On D1 she first suspected Nerwen for some vibe feeling (in a post that x-ed with Nessa's vote for me and Cop's vote for Nessa), but then scolded Nessa rather harshly and drove the final nail into her coffin. Could be a wolf deciding to push what's falling and make herself look good in the process, but on D1 and with two votes for an innocent to piggyback on? I doubt it. Her explanation for her vote in #63 does sound a little self-conscious though.

YesterDay she turned up rather late, seemed to trust Kit from the get-go and suspected me for pushing the Kitwagon together with Zil.

(Which reminds me, I owe her an answer to this:

Originally Posted by Gal55 #123

And this makes the lights flash red a lot. Kit could, eventually, name the innocent or not name him based on how she feels at the moment. But the more she prolongs the moment of revelation the more interaction and reaction we have to glean information of. On the other hand, a wolf can potentially save their hides by erasing this interaction before it has begun. When I think back to previous instances of such a situation happening it was a wolf who would ask this prompting question.

In theory, you're totally right. In praxi, I had to vote by the time I did, and had to make up my mind which seer to trust, so I pressed Kit for her dream because if she was fake, she might somehow contradict herself, and took her refusal as indication that she had no dream to tell and was reluctant to invent one. If I could have waited, I would have.)

She later relativized her suspicion of me, keeping me in the orange category however, and later gave the last vote to Zil after stating her intention to do so earlier.

Oh well. A wolf would of course have known that Kit was genuine, which could explain her lack of doubt, and she only voted Zil when the only other thing she could have done would have been to create a tie, which would have been frowned on once their roles were known. But her stated intention to vote Zil was apparently one cause for Shasta to vote him, and I don't know that a Galwolf would have gone to such lengths to lynch her packmates. If she's lupine and wins this way, I'd say she deserves it.

(to be continued)

* * *

Really, where are you all? I'm getting tired of talking to myself. Maybe I shouldn't sign up for games where the only time I have to play is when nobody else is online.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

- although, like Eomer said himself in #127, it didn't matter because they'd both be dead anyway (even if Kit had been lynched, Zil would be lynched toDay), and the wolf would of course want to make xemself look good, so it would actually be a sensible thing to do from both perspectives. Garrrh.

Good point, actually. I have looked over that in my analysis/summary. This kinda makes a number of points I made moot.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

A wolf would of course have known that Kit was genuine, which could explain her lack of doubt, and she only voted Zil when the only other thing she could have done would have been to create a tie, which would have been frowned on once their roles were known.

Oh, I was torn alright. It was all because of Zil's D1 "I don't like Kit but it's really thin" talk that made me confused at first (since how likely is that?). But then there was the time when Seeromer dreamed Nerwen and Shasta the first 2 Nights, who he said were wolves, but they claimed to be both gifted. So coincidences happen. And other than that Zi's pick of Kit and Nerwen (the other Seer and a dead person) as dreams sounded just too much like a typical self-defensive fake reveal. Now if he said he's just an ordo, or said he dreamt someone else...

But anyways, I did debate quite a lot in my head. The reason you don't know about it is because I barely had time to write my final decision, forget about the process by which I arrived to it. I post only 2 or 3 times a Day, which is abnormally quiet for me.

Originally Posted by Pitch

But her stated intention to vote Zil was apparently one cause for Shasta to vote him, and I don't know that a Galwolf would have gone to such lengths to lynch her packmates. If she's lupine and wins this way, I'd say she deserves it.

Huh, I wish I would play like you describe as a wolf!

[/self-opinion]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Really, where are you all? I'm getting tired of talking to myself. Maybe I shouldn't sign up for games where the only time I have to play is when nobody else is online.

I was there, but I was writing the analyses for 3 or 4 hours. It doesn't actually take that long, but it does when 5 different people call you to do all kids of stuff when you're in the middle of a thought process.

[Galadriel55]

Also, I don't know why exactly, but the last few posts by Pitchie make me drop my suspicions on him a bit again. Head tells me "danger" and vibes tell me "safe". Ddd Urgh! Why am I so conflicted about Pitch?


...I know why. Because Lommy isn't playing. Someone has to do her job for her.


(mirror, to explain this to you since I'm not sure you know how Lommy - aka Thinlomien - plays, she's famous for flip-flopping)

[Pitchwife]

Shasta
Was the first to vote Nessa on D1, and one of the starters of suspicion against her together with Nerwen (accepting that he'd had the thought independent of her, as he claimed). At the time the only reason to suspect Nessa was her famous latching on to Nerwen's/Eomer's suspicion of sally for latching on... (you all know the story), so he couldn't foresee she would earn more votes for her throwaway vote for me; meaning if this was a wolf-on-wolf vote, he could not know Nessa would end up dead - although he had reason to expect Nerwen might vote her too (on the off chance of a Nerwen vote on D1), so it was risky as well as unnecessary, if not as risky as if he'd made the vote later.

(To be clear, I'm talking about the guy who won his last wolf game triumphantly over the corpses of his ruthlessly bussed packmates, so there's little in wolf-on-wolfing that I'd put beyond him.)

Turned up late on D2, long post in which he questions me, sally and Cop, explains himself to Kit and banters with Zil; nothing eyebrow-raising in there. Argued for Kit being legit; summary of Zil, concluding that

Originally Posted by Shasta #115

it does look like a standard Seer lead-up on Inzil's part, and Kit does look a bit retaliatory, as though she's realized she's in trouble. But if that's so, and Kitwolf did realize Inzilgast had dreamt her, why not kill Inzil last night?

Weighing the arguments, nothing wrong with that.
Then votes Zil, putting him in the lead, because:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Besides everything that's left me in favor of Kit as the real Seer, G55 (should she return) was already planning a vote for Inzil. Tying it up would be silly.

Now this last reason sounds weird to me. Shasta, if you believed Kit to be the real Seer (as your previous posts indicate), why even consider tying it up? Why even mention that it played a role in your decision, when "I believe Kit, see above" would have been perfectly sufficient? Or did you secretly wish you could have voted differently and gave yourself away here?

[Pitchwife]

Gal, just so you know where I was coming from yesterDay: a long time ago I was once a seer and had revealed when a wolf counter-revealed; my dream had been killed the Night before, while he claimed to have dreamt a living innocent. He was caught when he started suspecting the very person he claimed to have dreamt as innocent. (OK, that was Morsul, and Kit, even if a wolf, would never have been so clumsy, but it was worth a try.)