Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

That's what I had though as well, however what about this time when he could have easily of lost his own ring: During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I see your point, after all he was a smooth talker form what were told.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I doubt that Ar-Pharazôn knew anything of the Ring. His predecessors on the throne had been hostile to the Elves who may alone have known of the great Ring, and even they may not have known the extent of its power. But Ar-Pharazôn had little to do with the Elves, the truth of whose traditions of Manwë and Varda Ar-Pharazôn had grown to largely disbelieve.

Ar-Pharazôn would have attributed Sauron’s power to various sources, including Sauron’s origin as a mighty Maia. Had the Elves attempted to warn Ar-Pharazôn of the Ring, he would have disbelieved them, seeing Sauron, so it seemed, humbled before him and his obedient servant.

[Morthoron]

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person. If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring. Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

Evidently, Ar-Pharazon never noticed it.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, II The Istari:

And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring [from Cirdan], and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

Logically, it seems Saruman should have known the dispositions of the Three. After all, he was the head of the White Council, apart from his general knowledge of the Rings of Power.

That brings a question though. Assuming Saruman did know where the Three were, why, by the time of the War of the Ring, did Sauron not have that knowledge?
The latter dominated Saruman through both's use of their palantiri, but maybe Saruman kept that hidden; an example of his dealing against both sides?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, II The Istari:

And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring [from Cirdan], and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story. Considering Saruman was making his own rings, he certainly would have taken Narya from Gandalf when he had him completely under his power - had he known a Ring of Power was there. Particularly so if, as the later, unpublished material states he had "ill-will" due to the ring. Saruman gaining Narya at Orthanc could very well spell the doom of the West.

The Return of the King contains, in Appendix B, the following:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them.

This is bolstered in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the Silmarillion, where it states:

But the red ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

But this is neither here nor there as, per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story.

I wouldn't think of it an editor's mistake, but a preliminary draft.

I forget which fantasy author told this tale, but one women entered a trivia contest at a science fiction convention where the questions were about the books she had written herself. She lost the contest. Badly. The many writes, rewrites, edits and changes got so confused in her head that her fans -- exposed only to the finished product -- remembered the final released version of her own world better than she did.

I suspect Tolkien knew his world better than most, but he rewrote and fine tuned to no small degree.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story. Considering Saruman was making his own rings, he certainly would have taken Narya from Gandalf when he had him completely under his power - had he known a Ring of Power was there. Particularly so if, as the later, unpublished material states he had "ill-will" due to the ring. Saruman gaining Narya at Orthanc could very well spell the doom of the West.

Saruman may still have had hope that Gandalf would see reason and join with him. In the chapter “The Council of Elrond″, Elrond said:

But they [the three Elvish Rings] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

So I see no problem in reconciling Saruman letting Gandalf keep Narya, for the time, with his knowledge that Gandalf possessed it. I see an equally great problem with Saruman not putting Gandalf to death immediately once Saruman had got hold of Gandalf. What was Saruman preserving Gandalf for? Did Saruman perhaps prevision that if Gandalf died, Manwë would send him back? Was Saruman genuine in his hope that Gandalf would ṗerhaps eventually reveal all that he knew of the Ring to Saruman? If as, then better do no more than imprison Gandalf without worrying about Narya.

It is the two quotations that you have presented that state clearly that the secret of who possessed the Three Rings was only known to their possessors which shows conclusively that the quotation I presented from Unfinished Tales does not fit with other material published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

But this is neither here nor there as, per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.

The quotations you presented are not “neither here nor there” but the proof that you are correct.

Of course I did not accept the point you were trying to make because I had forgotten those clear statements.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person.

I agree.

If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused).

I admit the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to work in the power of invisibility only so that the Rings themselves could be made invisible, and yet not the wearers, and before Sauron's plan was revealed? Why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful of the Elven Rings in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

I had not considered this before, which does raise the question of why Saruman did not discover Narya at this point if it was visible. But one does not necessarily search for something that isn't suspected in the first place, and Saruman's wrath may have been focused on keeping Gandalf prisoner... a fairly major step to have taken, as it was, and I'm not sure it's noted that he even took away Gandalf's staff.

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Galin

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused)..

I agree.

I always had the feeling that the Three Rings were visible if their bearers chose to make them so, more than that Frodo saw them because he himself bore the One. I wonder if he perhaps sensed their presence more than anyone else, though, as a result of being the Ringbearer. I agree with Galin's suggestion that Sam did see Nenya, but just didn't realise what it was - "I saw a star through your finger." Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

It's interesting that Galadriel is the only one to specifically tell Frodo where one of the Three lies: "It is not permitted to speak [of them], but it cannot be concealed from the Ringbearer, and one who has seen the Eye" (rough quotation from memory). Galadriel is known to be strong-willed, and may have many reasons for doing so. I always felt one of the main reasons, though, was that she felt he had a right to know. Perhaps Gandalf and Elrond thought it would be too risky, because such knowledge could be extracted from him by torture, but Galadriel reasoned that if the Ringbearer were captured, the game would be up in any case?

Maybe they also just felt that "he knew enough to be going on with" and didn't see any point in overloading him with more information. Not to mention the added responsibility of guarding further secrets. Plus, of course, the fact that we as the reader learn and wonder about things as Frodo does, and unsolved mysteries add to the richness of the story and keep us guessing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

I don't think the Three had any sort of invisibility. That power is specifically associated with the rings in which Sauron had a direct role in making. Invisibility is the "realm of hidden things", the shadow-world of the Nazgûl. Sauron seems to have endowed the One, the Seven, and the Nine with invisibility power with that in mind.
Why would the Elves had wanted the Three to have it, even if only as camouflage for the rings themselves? When the Three were fashioned, Sauron's plot involving the One was not known. Therefore, the Elves would have felt no call for any secrecy surrounding the Three or their use.

I favor the notion that Gandalf simply did not openly wear Narya at all times, but as Galin notes, Elrond and Galadriel would have been far more secure in wearing their rings, ensconced in secure locations.

[Galin]

Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

I was thinking more along the lines of Inziladun's recent post, that the Three were not connected to 'invisibility power' (which seemingly connects to Sauron's influence) even in this much measure, and that the Mirdain did not know of Sauron's plan when the Three were crafted.

When Galadriel first lifted up her arms: 'Frodo gazed at the Ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.' We don't know at this point that the Ring was necessarily invisible. Frodo didn't suddenly see a ring, he saw it and suddenly understood -- this connects to Galadriel's question later.

The second time Galadriel lifts her hand the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone. Frodo does ask why he cannot: '... see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them' but even this isn't exactly 'simple sight' but perception as well. As Ringbearer his 'sight has grown keener' -- not his physical visual powers I think, but his ability to see that which is hidden from the perception of others.

But of course comes the issue of Sam: yet note Galadriel's question compared to what had been noted about Frodo suddenly understanding: 'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.' Granted Galadriel doesn't say 'and recognize' to Sam as well, but I find it notable that 'and recognize' was added to a draft at some point, where the earlier text simply had 'see' for Frodo's question as well.

Sam doesn't actually mention any ring of course, admittedly suggesting invisibility, but he did see something -- and to my mind something connected to what was actually going on too -- he saw 'a star through your [Galadriel's] fingers'.

Again that's something, but perhaps Sam would not 'see' the truth even if he had noticed an actual ring: he wasn't the Bearer of the One, and as a Hobbit in general is 'Halfwise' and simple (and Sam already had said he didn't want 'to see no more magic' even). This would be quite like Tolkien in my opinion: a good way to illustrate perception would be to have Sam see something he thought was something else, and simply not understand what all this talk was about.

I'm not saying this is a clearly correct interpretation (especially if there is other text to consider on this point), however.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

It also probably wouldn't have impressed them enough to be worth taking. Remember, in and of itself, the One Ring doesn't look like much, it's a simple gold band, without stone or (visible) inscription (it's unclear if the insription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen. And since this is "old" sauron we are talking about who can still take fair forms, her presumably isn't in a form where his hand is continually on fire.) To the eyes of a Numernorian Royal or noble, it would appear a cheap trifle, the kind of thing they'd fob off on a low foot soldier for some minor service that meritied a token reward for appearances sake. Nothing worth taking.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

it's unclear if the inscription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen.

Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).

It probably didn't, the pre-Akallebeth form was counted amoung the "fair" ones, and I rather doubt burning or blackened hands would count as "fair". As for why the Post did, I think the answer is that, when Saurom re-incarnated post-Akallebeth he realized that, given his strength, this was likey the last form he would have, and, limted as he was to "foul" forms by then wanted to go with one that seemed most likey to accompish his goal of conquest. So the form he chose was as close as he could get to the form his former master, Melkorm, had taken (with both we have a "gigantic" (not so big with Sauron, but he is still described as being more than normal man size) human form in black armor. Melkor's hands continually burned (from trying to handle the Silmarils) so Sauron made his hands firey as well. No to mentiond it does add an extra layer of protection to the rings, Isildur got by by chopping the finger off and then taking it, but someone who simply tried to pull the ring(s) off Sauron's hands when he was simply knocked out or asleep, assuming Sauron does sleep (Melkor did, so Sauron probably does) would have to deal with rings that were likely perpetually red hot.