LOTR - A Long-Postponed Re-Read

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Am wondering - why didn't Ar-Pharazon try to take the Ring from Sauron when he took him prisoner? I take it Sauron had him in a kind of spell, since he managed the Downfall of Numenor though his "imprisonment." If Ar-P desired immortality, the Ring would have given him that - after a fashion. Maybe Sauron deflected this with a very lyrical hard sell about invading Valinor.

Or perhaps this is told in more depth somewhere else (Unfinished Tales, perhaps), and I've forgotten it.

Odds are, Pharazôn didn't know anything of the One Ring. The best source of information on the subject would have been the Eldar in Middle-earth, and Pharazôn wouldn't have been disposed to ask them anything.

Even if legends of the Rings of Power remained in Númenor, I can see Pharazón convincing himself the tales, with an "Elvish" origin, weren't worth worrying over.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Odds are, Pharazôn didn't know anything of the One Ring. The best source of information on the subject would have been the Eldar in Middle-earth, and Pharazôn wouldn't have been disposed to ask them anything.

Even if legends of the Rings of Power remained in Númenor, I can see Pharazón convincing himself the tales, with an "Elvish" origin, weren't worth worrying over.

Good point.

I was quite astonished at how long Sauron held the Ring before he was overthrown. Plenty of time to wreak all kinds of destruction. I know there were far more of the Eldar in Middle-earth then to withstand him, not to mention the Last Alliance, but it makes me wonder exactly how powerful the Ring was.

[Elmo]

I'm sure Sauron did not take his Ring to Numenor or it would have been lost when Numenor was destroyed. He left it in Mordor and took it up again after the cataclysm.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I'm sure Sauron did not take his Ring to Numenor or it would have been lost when Numenor was destroyed. He left it in Mordor and took it up again after the cataclysm.

It is clear that Sauron did have the Ring in his possession when taken to Númenor.
Aside from the question whether Sauron would have felt secure enough to have the One Ring not only out of his sight, but across an ocean, Tolkien himself said:

[Sauron] naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them...)

Letters #211

I wish I'd known of that letter when I made my earlier remark.

As for how Sauron's disembodied spirit could have transported the Ring back to Mordor, Tolkien said in the same letter:

Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

Sauron was an 'angelic' spirit, after all, and even though he lacked a physical body, maybe what carried the Ring was his will.

[d4rk3lf]

Sauron did not have the one ring in Numenor, as it was clearly stated in the end of Akkalabeth:

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though
he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an
evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his
spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind
over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his
home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt
there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of
malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few
could endure.

[Pervinca Took]

I think I would take that to mean "started openly wielding it again" and/or "resumed using it from Barad-dur." I just couldn't see him leaving it on the mantlepiece while he went off to Numenor. There was simply too much of himself in it. Maybe he could trust the Nazgul to guard it, since they were already completely enslaved (and he did send them out to the Shire, several thousands of years later, to fetch it), but it still seems too much of a risk.

I think I'd maybe compare it to Gandalf finally wearing Narya openly, just before embarking on the ship back to Valinor.

Very interesting source, though, d4rk3lf.

Sauron was an 'angelic' spirit, after all, and even though he lacked a physical body, maybe what carried the Ring was his will.

By the same token, I'm guessing that beings such as Gandalf and Sauron would not feel the Ring's magical weight, either. Elrond refers to the Ring-quest as "a heavy burden," and I think his intended meaning is literal as well as metaphorical, but although great among the Wise, and a descendant of Melian, he is not an angelic being himself, and is probably remembering Isildur, the first "mortal" Ringbearer, whom he would remember in his earliest days of "possessing" the Ring.

[Inziladun]

I believe that the comment about Sauron taking up his "great Ring in Barad-dûr" referred not to the One at all. Rather, "ring" in that context meant the fortress of Barad-dûr. Similar uses of "ring" are found with the "Ring of Doom" of the Valar, and the "Ring of Isengard".

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Sauron did not have the one ring in Numenor, as it was clearly stated in the end of Akkalabeth:

The reason I cannot see this is because of the Ring's influence on its wearers. I do not think there is a way Sauron could simply set his Ring aside. Anyone who bore it thought it precious and did not want it out of their sight. Also ring need not necessarily refer to those you put on your finger.

[d4rk3lf]

The question is why would Sauron needed the ring in Numenor?
He was a prisoner, and then later, an advisor. He doesn't need the ring to be king's advisor.

Also, it seems perfectly logical to me, that Sauron left the ring to Nazguls during negotiations, so if he got killed during negotiations, he could resurrect again (after all, he did that after the destruction of Numenor. His body was killed, and he resurrect again in Barad Dur, with the help of the ring, I think).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I'm sure Sauron did not take his Ring to Numenor or it would have been lost when Numenor was destroyed. He left it in Mordor and took it up again after the cataclysm.

I think it is possible he did have the Ring and brought it back with him to Mordor when Eru took action. He was one of the beings who built Middle Earth. I think he could take his Ring back with him even if he were unbodied.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

it makes me wonder exactly how powerful the Ring was.

The Ring had the power to corrupt but I think it was meant in the end to work in concert with the other Rings so that Sauron could control the free peoples of Middle Earth. Anything built with the One would always stand until the Ring itself was destroyed. However, with the One he was able to corrupt the king's line in Numenor save the Faithful, but, "Ar-Pharazôn...grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth" [Sil, p. 339]. Not even his most powerful servants could stand against the Numenoreans [Sil, p. 334].