Tom Bombadil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 10-16-2012, 10:31 AM

There are arguments that defend Bombadil - you will find some of them here on the downs. But I have to admit I can't bear him. It is the "poetry" - if you can dignify it by the title.

I certainly don't think he is "retarded" (which you should be aware is considered an offensive term in the UK though I understand it isn't so in the US)... just too different. I think Tolkien says in the Letters he is a sort of nature spirit. His lack of interest in the Ring perhaps suggests that he is a different type of being to Sauron and Gandalf. And to elves and mortals come to that. He has no need of it, he has all the power he needs and he may not be able to grasp it's importance. His mind works differently, he has a different perspective and priorities.

d4rk3lf · 10-16-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I certainly don't think he is "retarded" (which you should be aware is considered an offensive term in the UK though I understand it isn't so in the US)... just too different. I think Tolkien says in the Letters he is a sort of nature spirit. His lack of interest in the Ring perhaps suggests that he is a different type of being to Sauron and Gandalf. And to elves and mortals come to that. He has no need of it, he has all the power he needs and he may not be able to grasp it's importance. His mind works differently, he has a different perspective and priorities.

Retarded - in a sense that he has something similar like (human) mental disorder. His non ability to understand the importance of the situation, and no one could count on Tom.
I know it sounds raw, but my intentions are not to offend anyone, sorry for that, and my English is far from perfect, since it's not my native language (I am Serbian).

You've maid some very good points, and I agree that everybody have their own perception and view on the situation. However, no matter what are his priorities, I guess one of his priority is to live, and if Sauron got the ring, no one can live. You got what I am saying? That's the most confusing thing to me.

Mithalwen · 10-16-2012, 11:19 AM

I realise you didn't - it was just to make you aware. It can be a bit of a minefield even for native speakers. Unfortunately what were originally simply "technical terms" tend to become insults.

I wonder if Tom really could have kept the ring safe. He has power but it is limited. Gandalf doesn't think he could if the might of Mordor were directed at him - he might be the last to fall, but he would fall.

d4rk3lf · 10-16-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I wonder if Tom really could have kept the ring safe. He has power but it is limited. Gandalf doesn't think he could if the might of Mordor were directed at him - he might be the last to fall, but he would fall.

That's Ok.
It's not the problem he couldn't keep ring safe, the problem is that he would even refuse to go to Elrond council. Even to talk about it. To share some of his wisdom.
He would forgot about the ring. He would throw it away.

Imagine a friend who is behaving that way (you gave him a mobile phone, and he is throw that away, because that thing don't interest him).

What would you think of him?

See what i am saying?

Mithalwen · 10-16-2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

That's Ok.
It's not the problem he couldn't keep ring safe, the problem is that he would even refuse to go to Elrond council. Even to talk about it. To share some of his wisdom.
He would forgot about the ring. He would throw it away.

Imagine a friend who is behaving that way (you gave him a mobile phone, and he is throw that away, because that thing don't interest him).

What would you think of him?

See what i am saying?

Yes I do but I still think that Bombadil is so different it doesn't apply. I think he is very much tied to his location his environment. I don't think he would have been able to help the council even if they could have got them there. Rather like in Australia the Aboriginal trackers have a legendary ability to find their way in the outback and to find those who have got lost in it. They wouldn't have the same ability if they were set to find someone in the city.

jallanite · 10-16-2012, 10:27 PM

Tom Bombadil is represented by Tolkien as eccentric, very eccentric. As Sam says:

He’s a caution and no mistake. I reckon we may go a good deal further and see naught better, nor queerer.

By a caution and queerer Sam means that Tom Bombadil is eccentric.

Should eccentric folk not appear in The Lord of the Rings? That seems to be the main problem that d4rk3lf has with Tom Bombadil, that he simply won’t fit in. But as Gandalf explains it, Tom Bombadil just can’t fit in. Yet Gandalf obviously respects him immensely, even though outside his territory Bombadil is apparently of very little use.

As Tolkien writes in letter 144 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:

The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken ‘a vow of poverty’, renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends.

One famous eccentric is talked of at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton . Another is talked of at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman . Of course neither is Tom Bombadil. But it would also have done Elrond no use to summon either to his Council. Emperor Norton would probably have had nothing to say to the point and Grigori Perelman has a history of refusing such supposed honours.

But presumably part of the point is that Elrond summoned hardly anyone to his Council which he did not know about until most had already arrived, apparently by chance and it became apparent that a Council was desperately needed.

10-16-2012, 10:31 AM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	There are arguments that defend Bombadil - you will find some of them here on the downs. But I have to admit I can't bear him. It is the "poetry" - if you can dignify it by the title. I certainly don't think he is "retarded" (which you should be aware is considered an offensive term in the UK though I understand it isn't so in the US)... just too different. I think Tolkien says in the Letters he is a sort of nature spirit. His lack of interest in the Ring perhaps suggests that he is a different type of being to Sauron and Gandalf. And to elves and mortals come to that. He has no need of it, he has all the power he needs and he may not be able to grasp it's importance. His mind works differently, he has a different perspective and priorities. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-16-2012, 11:19 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	I realise you didn't - it was just to make you aware. It can be a bit of a minefield even for native speakers. Unfortunately what were originally simply "technical terms" tend to become insults. I wonder if Tom really could have kept the ring safe. He has power but it is limited. Gandalf doesn't think he could if the might of Mordor were directed at him - he might be the last to fall, but he would fall. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-16-2012, 10:27 PM	#6
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Tom Bombadil is represented by Tolkien as eccentric, very eccentric. As Sam says: He’s a caution and no mistake. I reckon we may go a good deal further and see naught better, nor queerer. By a caution and queerer Sam means that Tom Bombadil is eccentric. Should eccentric folk not appear in The Lord of the Rings? That seems to be the main problem that d4rk3lf has with Tom Bombadil, that he simply won’t fit in. But as Gandalf explains it, Tom Bombadil just can’t fit in. Yet Gandalf obviously respects him immensely, even though outside his territory Bombadil is apparently of very little use. As Tolkien writes in letter 144 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken ‘a vow of poverty’, renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. One famous eccentric is talked of at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton . Another is talked of at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman . Of course neither is Tom Bombadil. But it would also have done Elrond no use to summon either to his Council. Emperor Norton would probably have had nothing to say to the point and Grigori Perelman has a history of refusing such supposed honours. But presumably part of the point is that Elrond summoned hardly anyone to his Council which he did not know about until most had already arrived, apparently by chance and it became apparent that a Council was desperately needed.