Taters to Taters - II

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not surprised the two of you, Nog and Lottie, were the ones owning the taters in question. By the way, who were the two connected minds coming up with Fangorn and huorns?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I might as well come clean and declare that Ted Sandyman was mine, and I really disagree with Nogrod's analysis of him. I think if I had been able to post a bit more, I might have been able to make him a serious contender, but RL came in the way.

I don't know if Nog was serious or just trying to harm an opposing candidate, in which preindustrial society is a miller ostracized from the elite? Granted they are not semi-nobility like one could argue the Took's are, but they are definitely well above your average gardener and what not.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't know if Nog was serious or just trying to harm an opposing candidate, in which preindustrial society is a miller ostracized from the elite? Granted they are not semi-nobility like one could argue the Took's are, but they are definitely well above your average gardener and what not.

Hardly! The Shire wasn't preindustrial, it was agricultural. Hobbits love plants. They do not love mills. Mills are not the hub of their society. A miller would by no means be above a gardener.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

With both Samwise and Ted Sandyman there are exceptional circumstances that changes their fortunes. Samwise gets tangle up in the affairs of the great, whilst Ted remain in Hobbiton during a (from most peoples point of view) hostile takeover. In the end Ted seizes to be a miller, and ends up working for Saruman, during his attempt to industrialize the Shire. Samwise ends up being the mayor, and at this point you can sertainly argue that Samwise has higher standing than Ted.

However at this point we are no longer comparing Ted the miller with Samwise the gardener. Now we are comparing Ted the traitor and industrial worker, with Samwise the war hero and mayor.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, is this thread turning to some meta-discussion about pre-industrial societies? Well, let me just point out one thing.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:

Originally Posted by The Window of the West

"Your land must be a realm of peace and content, and there must gardeners be in high honour."
"Not all is well there," said Frodo, "but certainly gardeners are honoured."

I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

Fair play, when talking history I tend to generalise. So I used preindustrial in the broadest of forms, also because this is the use I have encountered the most often.

Originally Posted by Loslote

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.

I agree that maybe it is a stretch trying to apply our social terms on Hobbits, but isn't it fun?

I am not sure about personalities having greater influence than in our society, on the face of it, these things seem quite similar. However I would need to reread the books with this in mind, before making my mind up.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:

I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

Yep, I guess. The soldier example is actually pretty good one, that's basically how I imagine the gardeners to differ. However, and that's what we are getting at and what I believe Nog's post and Lottie later were aiming at as well, even this means a difference: gardener and miller apparently come from similar class background, but with the difference that the gardener is respected in some special way, whereas miller is not in any special way (which can then open door to what Nog had said, in certain circumstances). But whatever, I am by no means willing to make this a "How did class relationships work in the Shire" thread...