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#1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
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Each probably was. The Unfinished Tales chapter
on The Istari addresses these. Though it was more, as far as I can see, the reaction or treatment that defined the Istari. Saruman may not have gone bad if he wasn't grovelled so much by M-e leaders. If, for example, (forget his name) the Steward that gave him the key to Orthanc never did that or allowed him access to the Minas Tirith archives, lack of access to the Palantir & a fixed abode may have mitigated, if not prevented, his evolution of thought. Gandalf got fair treatment, but not 'special treatment', as it were. So his ego wasn't tickled to inflate. Radagast ensured he lived humbly and in 'Wild' lands on the west side of Mirkwood. Nor did he zigzag and seek grovelling. The Blue wizards? Who knows. So in a way, when you think about it, the themes and flow of the story tell us more about how they are treated by other characters than their inherent skills. We get hints of Saruman & Gandalf being lore-masters, but not the full picture. And their decisions influenced by what they saw/did in Middle-earth.
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#2 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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And lack of access to the archives - that is ridiculous. Saruman (or in fact, all the Istari) was supposed to help the folks of Middle-Earth, among other things, with their knowledge. A Steward should then come and say "hey, you have no permission to look into my archives"? That'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? Denying information to your allies sounds quite nonsensical to me. After all, it's only information - but what one decides to do with it, that is what counts. And as we know, Saruman eventually used e.g. some of the knowledge of Sauron's to (possibly) for example breed Uruk-hai... but that came from his own mind. And as for Radagast, see above. Remember that he failed. Radagast was on the opposite end of the spectrum from Saruman, but they were both extreme. Radagast went so far in his, as you say, "humble life in the wild" that he got totally out of touch with the "real" world around him, out of touch with the Free Peoples and their problems. (Saruman had the opposite problem, he had forgotten that nature is something more than just tool for the humans. But they both made a critical mistake.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#3 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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The two Blue Wizards are perhaps the trickiest of the bunch to reach any conclusions as. As far as Radagast, I agree with Legate his apathy and laziness to completing his mission of rallying suppport to defeat Sauron meant he failed, however he had never "fallen" to evil. Just as there is evil that exists in Middle-earth, completely independent of Sauron, with a strong power of its own (think Old Man Willow), there are overall good forces yet rather apathetic towards the fight against Sauron. The Blue Wizards are slightly different, because it seems as if their fate is unknown. They travel East, with Saruman (but do not return), and perhaps start cults of their own, or perhaps just die and have very little impact on the events of the Third Age, primarily dealing with Saruman. But in his late writings, Tolkien seems to revise and imply Alatar and Pallando have a huge effect on the Third Age, curtailing Sauron's influence in the East. That Alatar and Pallando were sent specifically to the East (lending credence to TheLostPilgrim's post of each Istari having separate missions) and their actions in the East swayed many away from Sauron who's forces would have simply overwhelmed the West, had they not been sent: Quote:
However, it should still illustrated the point that, I believed all the Istari were sent with sort of a specialized mission, meant to contribute to the overall purpose of defeating Sauron. They were not meant to directly use their power to fight Sauron's power, but instead to use the powers in the people and creatures of Middle-earth to defeat Sauron. Gandalf clearly succeeds in this, with his constant weary fight in aiding Elves, Men, Hobbits, and dwarves against Sauron. Saruman was meant to do much the same, and perhaps use his knowledge of craft and voice to help. Radagast seems most likely meant to get the animals, creatures, and nature united against Sauron. While Alatar and Pallando were specifically sent East to do what they can in halting Sauron's influence in places like Rhun, Harad, and Khand.
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Saruman was head of the White Council at the time, but Beren had no way of knowing whom Saruman really represented (the Valar). Nor
do we know why he cleared him access. While there's the voluntary possibility, it's also possible he used his 'voice' power on Beren too.
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Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia |
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#5 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#6 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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If we judge by how it performed in the chapter of 'The Voice of Saruman' it would have ideally been used after Beren tells his servants to leave so that Saruman's alone with him. He wasn't 'good' then, he'd already said no to an assault on Dol Guldor and if you check the timeline at the back of TLotR he had already searched the Gladden Fields, etc. Probably already obtained the Ellendil Star from Isildur's body. As well as at least got to the point of spying on the Shire. We don't know whether Beren saw the White Council as allies. Presumably Beren could speak Elvish, like all from the Numenorian line on Middle-earth. So it's logical either Beren voluntarily gave him the keys to Orthanc & Minas Tirith archives or he coerced him when the opportunity came.
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#7 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Of course it is, I said it's my personal point of view. But it's based on what we know about Saruman. He was still not corrupted by the thought about the Ring at that time, and for instance we know he still, for some time, had been discussing with Treebeard rather politely (asking him permissions if he could visit Fangorn at all and so on). He certainly would have wanted to have a base (since it was "cool" and gave him some more authority), but I think he would still be reluctant to "perform mind tricks" (see above my explanation of what I do and what I don't mean by him using his Voice), and, most of all, he would not even need to perform them.
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Another account of this is also in the part about the kings of Rohan: Quote:
There is another sentence in the following text, saying that Saruman "seemed to be a friend for long, and in the beginning he maybe was one in truth". The "maybe", true, makes it sound a little doubtful, but I think there is no need to think that he wasn't. (I mean, there is no "maybe" in the objective way of thinking; the "maybe" is merely the chronicler's note: but in the end, either Saruman was a friend, or wasn't. And I daresay he was, but what is even clearer is that there had been no doubt about him being a friend in the eyes of the Free Peoples - whether he truly had been one or not. In any case, you would not call him "maybe a friend" if he had been walking around mind-controlling people into giving him a fortress.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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