Wizard Gone Missing - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheLostPilgrim · 12-01-2012, 04:41 PM

Gandalf is sort of the inverse of Merlin:

Both advise and counsel but use different means. Gandalf always uses good to reach good ends. Merlin sometimes uses evil (IE the rape of Igrayne) to reach good ends. They share the aim of ultimately bringing the realms they inhabit to goodness, to right.

Perhaps Merlin was one of the Blue Wizards in latter days, with the stories being somewhat twisted through time.

Galadriel55 · 12-01-2012, 07:13 PM

I am not as learned in various lores as the other people who posted on this thread, but I want to give my two cents. While it's hard for me to differentiate between a "Germanic" and a "Norse" wizard, I can see the difference between that and a "Celtic" one. It's not so much about the correct terminology as being able to convey the right image.

Thinking of wizards' appearances I remembered one bit of Norse mythology that describes Odin - while he is a warrior, he would sometimes take the shape of an old man with a long beard leaning on a staff, wearing a big hat and a cloak. Sounds familiar? And though one of his aspects is concerned with magic (my memory is a bit hazy here) I don't recall him doing that magic through the influence of nature (ie the elements) - but again, I can't be sure about that last point.

There are two ways to do magic/miracles/whatever you want to call it. You could do it with the nature, or against the nature. An example of "with" would be Sam asking for light and water in Mordor and - surprise - they found water and it becomes light. It's as if someone actually influences the nature. An example of "against" would be Gandalf setting the place on fire to scare off wargs and werewolves near Moria. It's less of an act through the means of nature and more of an act independent of nature.

Sometimes it's hard to draw a clear line between the two, but at any rate Gandalf, when doing "magic", tends to go against nature. I would say that this is more Nordic than Celtic.

Then, there is an interesting aspect I noticed regarding the Russian translation of LOTR. There are words in Russian with a similar etymology as the word wizard - they also stem from the words wisdom, knowledge. But the translators did not use any of these words; they chose the non-Slavic term mag (which stems from the same roots as magic). Now to put in a word for the Slavic "wizards" - they tend to do magic with nature (so are closer in this sense to Celtic wizards than to Norse ones). On the other hand, mag is associated more with magic against nature. I know that the translators are not Tolkien, but in my opinion this shows very much what sort of wizard they believed Gandalf to be.

However, the division of Norse/Germanic/Celtic is not really the point. The question is about how and why Gandalf changes.

As for his changes in TH, I agree with what Legate has said - ie that how you act depends on where and when. But also I think that the mood of the entire book becomes more grave at that point. Well, the change begins a bit earlier, but the point is that overall the Mountain chapters are much graver than An Unexpected Party. Bilbo gains some wisdom and maturity, the Dwarves get an aspect of seriousness and a passionate longing for their home in addition to their earlier depiction, the "adventure" becomes much more dangerous and complex than a hobbit-and-dwarf walking party... So just as everything changes, so does Gandalf's personality.

But I think it is not until LOTR that his real wisdom and power shine through. In TH, even at the end, he is still more of a comical-wizard, "conjuring cheap tricks". In LOTR, while he still does some of that "magic", his greater power is not is his little tricks. They seem petty compared to the power of his will and thought. But he is just that - will and wisdom clothed in a body. When he becomes Gandalf the White, it is as if he is given special permission to act, in addition to what he had as Gandalf the Grey. Not that he did not act before, but those were more passive actions, in a sense.

So Gandalf just gains and gains as he goes along, and we gain information about him as we go along (in book terms). Doesn't really lose anything, but some aspects are merely overshadowed.

littlemanpoet · 12-02-2012, 08:25 AM

Quote:

The new names arrived around the time Thorin & Co. reached the Lonely Mountain--thus freeing up the name "Bladorthin" to belong to the king of the undelivered spears--and when the wizard returned to the stage he was Gandalf.

This is the anchor I have needed. It fits with what I've been struggling to say. The change in Gandalf occurs between his disappearance just before Mirkwood, and his return just before the Battle of Five Armies.

Does Rateliff's book say that "Bladorthin" is an Elvish name?

I'm not sure it matters. If I were a writer in Tolkien's place, I would want to make my wizard have a very different kind of name from my Dwarves. Bladorthin is very different; Tolkien realized later that Gandalf is also different from the other Dwarvish names, having the root "elf" in it. So in his wizard he always had an "Elvish" quality.

For Tolkien, it seems, "Elvish" meant a different kind of magic than that of the Dwarves. Yet both are perhaps Nordic/Germanic as opposed to Celtic. (Thanks for your help in clearing that up a bit, Galadriel55).

Formendacil · 12-02-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Does Rateliff's book say that "Bladorthin" is an Elvish name?

Rateliff can't provide a gloss on Bladorthin to give us an idea of what it translates too, but he provides plenty of evidence to show that it contains elements of Gnomish/Noldorin (the Sindarin antecedents that were current in the Silmarillion tradition of the time) and there's no doubt that Tolkien borrowed from himself in devising the name.

I don't have the books to hand, but I also recall him commenting that the "-thin" element in the name is close to the same element in "Thingol" (Greycloak) and he notes that Bladorthin in his conception contains elements of "the Grey."

littlemanpoet · 12-10-2012, 11:27 AM

Yesterday I reread an old Mythlore Magazine (sponsored by the Mythopoeic Society) article about the Trickster in fantasy and myth. The author identified Gandalf, in The Hobbit, as fitting the Trickster archetype, in the following ways:

he tricks Bilbo into joining the Dwarves as a thief
he disappears suddenly with no explanation just before the party meets up with the Trolls
he reappears - again with no explanation - to get the Dwarves and Bilbo out of their fix with the Trolls
he disappears just when the Goblins capture the party
he reappears to save them from the Goblins
he tricks Beorn into hosting a hobbit and 13 dwarves
he again leaves without explanation just before they enter Mirkwood

The last thing one can say about a Trickster character is that he is boring! But it's clear that Tolkien had to change, or at least explain, this kind of behavior in the context of his more serious sequel to The Hobbit.

Rumil · 12-10-2012, 07:01 PM

Interesting!

Also, although this was a later idea of course, Gandalf had to veil his power (as an Istari) and I guess the last thing he would have done in the Shire was turning his Istari-ness up to 11.

Note that he tweaks the dial up somewhat in front of Bilbo when B is trying to hang on to The Ring before leaving Bag End. Even Pippin notices, eventually, in Minas Tirith, that Gandalf, while appearing weaker, is really far stronger and far older (how old? wonderred Pippin) than Denethor.

Gandalf in the War of the Ring 'says many grim things', of course he does, the world is at stake here after all. But afterwards he relaxes and his lines of care disappear.

If you like, Gandalf tailors his image to suit the sitiuation and the onlooker, from the crotchety trickster at Bag End to the thoughtful and paternalistic at Dale, to the LoTR foreboding and portentous, the defiant, the renewer, etc etc. To be fair he had an awful lot of practice at dealing with the various inhabitants of Middle Earth so was no doubt quite good at it by the end of the 3rd Age.

cellurdur · 12-10-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Yesterday I reread an old Mythlore Magazine (sponsored by the Mythopoeic Society) article about the Trickster in fantasy and myth. The author identified Gandalf, in The Hobbit, as fitting the Trickster archetype, in the following ways:

he tricks Bilbo into joining the Dwarves as a thief
he disappears suddenly with no explanation just before the party meets up with the Trolls
he reappears - again with no explanation - to get the Dwarves and Bilbo out of their fix with the Trolls
he disappears just when the Goblins capture the party
he reappears to save them from the Goblins
he tricks Beorn into hosting a hobbit and 13 dwarves
he again leaves without explanation just before they enter Mirkwood

The last thing one can say about a Trickster character is that he is boring! But it's clear that Tolkien had to change, or at least explain, this kind of behavior in the context of his more serious sequel to The Hobbit.

1. Gandalf doesn't completely trick Bilbo into taking the adventure. Bilbo himself agrees to go.
2. Gandalf had many things to do. I would say not that he disappeared when the trolls came into play, but that without Gandalf they soon got into trouble.
3. He does not disappear when the goblins come to capture the dwarves. He wakes up in time to fight many of, but the cave closes before he can get through to them.
4. We later learn he has left to deal with the Necromancer.

Gandalf apart from a few white lies cannot relate to the trickers in Norse Mythology. Even Odin is far more ominous character than Gandalf.

littlemanpoet · 12-11-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellurdur

1. Gandalf doesn't completely trick Bilbo into taking the adventure. Bilbo himself agrees to go.
2. Gandalf had many things to do. I would say not that he disappeared when the trolls came into play, but that without Gandalf they soon got into trouble.
3. He does not disappear when the goblins come to capture the dwarves. He wakes up in time to fight many of, but the cave closes before he can get through to them.
4. We later learn he has left to deal with the Necromancer.

Gandalf apart from a few white lies cannot relate to the trickers in Norse Mythology. Even Odin is far more ominous character than Gandalf.

As to:

1. It's a better trick that Gandalf gets Bilbo to agree.
2. Your first point is what Tolkien himself says, so I have no argument with it, since it does not argue successfully against Gandalf/Bladorthin as Trickster. Your second point is a quibble; he did leave, knowing that they would get in trouble without him, but he still left.
3. True, but he still surprises the Goblins by trickery.
4. "Later learn" speaks to the changes Tolkien made by the time he realized that he had drawn enough of Middle Earth into TH that he needed to rethink it all, and therefore he has the Necromancer thing going on. It's arguable that if the topic of the Necromancer comes in at the early stages, it may be a rewrite. No proof of that.

Gandalf's trickery with the Trolls is especially Tricksterish.

Of course Odin is a far more ominous Trickster than Gandalf/Bladorthin. That does not in the least remove from the category.

12-01-2012, 07:13 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	I am not as learned in various lores as the other people who posted on this thread, but I want to give my two cents. While it's hard for me to differentiate between a "Germanic" and a "Norse" wizard, I can see the difference between that and a "Celtic" one. It's not so much about the correct terminology as being able to convey the right image. Thinking of wizards' appearances I remembered one bit of Norse mythology that describes Odin - while he is a warrior, he would sometimes take the shape of an old man with a long beard leaning on a staff, wearing a big hat and a cloak. Sounds familiar? And though one of his aspects is concerned with magic (my memory is a bit hazy here) I don't recall him doing that magic through the influence of nature (ie the elements) - but again, I can't be sure about that last point. There are two ways to do magic/miracles/whatever you want to call it. You could do it with the nature, or against the nature. An example of "with" would be Sam asking for light and water in Mordor and - surprise - they found water and it becomes light. It's as if someone actually influences the nature. An example of "against" would be Gandalf setting the place on fire to scare off wargs and werewolves near Moria. It's less of an act through the means of nature and more of an act independent of nature. Sometimes it's hard to draw a clear line between the two, but at any rate Gandalf, when doing "magic", tends to go against nature. I would say that this is more Nordic than Celtic. Then, there is an interesting aspect I noticed regarding the Russian translation of LOTR. There are words in Russian with a similar etymology as the word wizard - they also stem from the words wisdom, knowledge. But the translators did not use any of these words; they chose the non-Slavic term mag (which stems from the same roots as magic). Now to put in a word for the Slavic "wizards" - they tend to do magic with nature (so are closer in this sense to Celtic wizards than to Norse ones). On the other hand, mag is associated more with magic against nature. I know that the translators are not Tolkien, but in my opinion this shows very much what sort of wizard they believed Gandalf to be. However, the division of Norse/Germanic/Celtic is not really the point. The question is about how and why Gandalf changes. As for his changes in TH, I agree with what Legate has said - ie that how you act depends on where and when. But also I think that the mood of the entire book becomes more grave at that point. Well, the change begins a bit earlier, but the point is that overall the Mountain chapters are much graver than An Unexpected Party. Bilbo gains some wisdom and maturity, the Dwarves get an aspect of seriousness and a passionate longing for their home in addition to their earlier depiction, the "adventure" becomes much more dangerous and complex than a hobbit-and-dwarf walking party... So just as everything changes, so does Gandalf's personality. But I think it is not until LOTR that his real wisdom and power shine through. In TH, even at the end, he is still more of a comical-wizard, "conjuring cheap tricks". In LOTR, while he still does some of that "magic", his greater power is not is his little tricks. They seem petty compared to the power of his will and thought. But he is just that - will and wisdom clothed in a body. When he becomes Gandalf the White, it is as if he is given special permission to act, in addition to what he had as Gandalf the Grey. Not that he did not act before, but those were more passive actions, in a sense. So Gandalf just gains and gains as he goes along, and we gain information about him as we go along (in book terms). Doesn't really lose anything, but some aspects are merely overshadowed. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

12-10-2012, 11:27 AM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Bladorthin the Trickster Yesterday I reread an old Mythlore Magazine (sponsored by the Mythopoeic Society) article about the Trickster in fantasy and myth. The author identified Gandalf, in The Hobbit, as fitting the Trickster archetype, in the following ways: he tricks Bilbo into joining the Dwarves as a thief he disappears suddenly with no explanation just before the party meets up with the Trolls he reappears - again with no explanation - to get the Dwarves and Bilbo out of their fix with the Trolls he disappears just when the Goblins capture the party he reappears to save them from the Goblins he tricks Beorn into hosting a hobbit and 13 dwarves he again leaves without explanation just before they enter Mirkwood The last thing one can say about a Trickster character is that he is boring! But it's clear that Tolkien had to change, or at least explain, this kind of behavior in the context of his more serious sequel to The Hobbit.

12-10-2012, 07:01 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Interesting! Also, although this was a later idea of course, Gandalf had to veil his power (as an Istari) and I guess the last thing he would have done in the Shire was turning his Istari-ness up to 11. Note that he tweaks the dial up somewhat in front of Bilbo when B is trying to hang on to The Ring before leaving Bag End. Even Pippin notices, eventually, in Minas Tirith, that Gandalf, while appearing weaker, is really far stronger and far older (how old? wonderred Pippin) than Denethor. Gandalf in the War of the Ring 'says many grim things', of course he does, the world is at stake here after all. But afterwards he relaxes and his lines of care disappear. If you like, Gandalf tailors his image to suit the sitiuation and the onlooker, from the crotchety trickster at Bag End to the thoughtful and paternalistic at Dale, to the LoTR foreboding and portentous, the defiant, the renewer, etc etc. To be fair he had an awful lot of practice at dealing with the various inhabitants of Middle Earth so was no doubt quite good at it by the end of the 3rd Age. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

12-01-2012, 04:41 PM	#1
TheLostPilgrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 72	Gandalf is sort of the inverse of Merlin: Both advise and counsel but use different means. Gandalf always uses good to reach good ends. Merlin sometimes uses evil (IE the rape of Igrayne) to reach good ends. They share the aim of ultimately bringing the realms they inhabit to goodness, to right. Perhaps Merlin was one of the Blue Wizards in latter days, with the stories being somewhat twisted through time.