Arwen vs. Galadriel

[elbenprincess]

2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
Today 09:29 AM

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

Elrond was not of the Noldor

Of course he is not, but he can not match Feanor and if Galadriel is short behind Feanor, or even his equal then logic says us that Elrond is inferior to Galadriel. Method of elimination.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

This is my fault, I accidentally put the comma in the wrong place. I meant Gandalf the wisest of the Maiar accepted Saruman as the head.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

I don't remember reading anything of the sort and the Half-Elven are their ow separate race, at least until the elvish blood thinned to a great extent. Earendil especially just gets the best qualities from both races.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

The previous quote about Cirdan's knowledge of the future surpassing even Elrond in Middle Earth is enough to show he had greater knowledge of the future.

As for Lore he is said to be

Wise in all Lore

about the lay of Luthien.

and there are none now , except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.


where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt greatest of lore masters

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.

[Boromir88]

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:

"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you." he answered.~The White Rider

Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

"They answered a summons, as you heard" said Gimli. "Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred! Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess."
"Nay, Galadriel," said Legolas. "Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company through the North?"
"Yes, you have it," said Gimli. "The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires..."~The Passing of the Grey Company

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.~Appendix B: Tale of Years

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:
Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

Yes and Tolkien actually does talk about this.

The quote I provided was from Page 398, Myths transformed Morgoth's Ring.

I will provide the full quote, but will have to type it up.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it. Galadriel had an exceptional and the greatest skill for the first aspect.

Here are the quotes from Page 338 Shibboleth of Feanor, the People of Middle Earth.

From her (Galadriel) earliest years she had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

He continues about how pride stopped her tuning back and she was still too proud to return. He goes on about how only when the One Ring came into her possession did she finally have the means to gain what she wanted in her youth.

It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion over Middle Earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test she departed from Middle Earth forever.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.




There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.

Lothlorien still has a much greater population and army than Rivendell. That apart people ignore how Sauron DID actually come to Rivendell and was still unable to conquer it. This was Sauron with the One Ring and Elrond without Vilya.

That apart the quote does not take into account Sauron unnaturally empowering one of his servants. The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

[elbenprincess]

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.

That´s right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just don´t got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.

He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?

"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didn´t visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one could assume that she knew alot abot it.

Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.

I´m pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.

Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood.

Quote please.

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.

Where is it stated?

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents.

Oh I so much agree.

Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.

I agree with Cirdan but I really don´t know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien out). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.

I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar

I can show you a quote that he was counted as one of the Eldar!

When Tolkien was finishing his Lord of the Rings in the early 1950s he fell back again on his manuscript of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s. In the last version of this text “Elrond Halfelven” finally decides – “as was grantet to him” – (HoMe V, p. 332) to be counted among the Eldar while Elros decides to be counted among men.

It was so hard to find it.

I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Wow, that would be really new to me.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. It´s just always the elves or Eldar.

One example:

But the promise made to the eldar (the high elves – not to other varieties, they had log before made their irrevocable choice, preferring ME to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime dark lord had still to be fullifield: that they should always be able to leave M E, if they wished and pass over sea to the true west, by the straight road and so come to eressea.

I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didn´t wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.

"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.

It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.

And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head.

At length the Lady Galadriel released them from her eyes, and she smiled. 'Do not let your hearts be troubled,' she said. 'Tonight you shall sleep in peace.' Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.
'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own.'

There was more going on than just guessing.

The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

But still he wold not be able to conquer Lothlorien, for only Sauron in person would have the needed power to do so.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it.

I´m not saying that Galadriel did that, cause Sauron in clearly not a lesser mind, but it would be an explanation if one really sticks to the these that Galadriel read Saurons mind (which I do, cause she said so). But would it still be considered evil if the person has a good purpose? I don´t think so, if the outcome is good, it cold be seen as an exceptional case.

certain parts of their thoughts

"Certain parts of their thoughts" would explain why she only knew ... "or all of his mind that concerns the Elves

I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

Yes, I did not express myself well, she has no authority. I think it´s just nice to see that Gwaihir "is working together with her in that case" regardless her past and him being an eagle of Manwe.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

That´s right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just don´t got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.

No it is not strongly implied. She is said to be mighty among the Noldor, but not one of the mightiest.

"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didt visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one cold assme that she knew alot abot it.

Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.

Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.

Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.

I´m pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.

She did not associate with them. Elrond was raised by them especially and Galadriel's time with them was before there deeds in ME.

Quote please.

Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children to part either with you or with Middle-earth."

In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men. And from these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda; for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Luthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendil their father was the son of Idril Celebrindal, Turgon's daughter of Gondolin" -War of Wrath, Silmarillion

Aragorn's 'healing' might be considered as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure 'Man', but a long remove on of the 'children of Luthien'-letter 155

But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.-Silmarillion

Pengolodh here elaborates (though it is not necessary for his argument) this matter of "foresight". No mind, he asserts, knows what is not in it. All that it has experienced is in it, though in the case of the Incarnate, dependent upon the instruments of the hröa, some things may be "forgotten", not immediately available for recollection. But no part of the "future" is there, for the mind cannot see it or have seen it: that is, a mind placed in time. Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä). An Incarnate can thus only know anything of the future, by instruction derived from the Valar, or by a revelation coming direct from Eru. But any mind, whether of the Valar or of the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass. This is not foresight, not though it may be clearer in terms and indeed even more accurate than glimpses of foresight. Not even if it is formed into visions seen in dream, which is a means whereby "foresight" also is frequently presented to the mind.
Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called "foresight" in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be "foresight" at second hand-Vinyar Tengwar

True foresight where one really sees the future can only come from the Ainur. Usually it is from divine revelation from the Valar. The foresight in just predicting the future; all of the Wise have.

Where is it stated?

I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

I agree with Cirdan but I really don´t know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien ot). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.

Dior defeated one of the strongest sons of Feanor and we know litte else of his deeds. Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?

As for Cirdan, I have already provided the quote, that his knowledge exceeding Elrond in particular was noted.

I can show yo a qote that he was connted as one of the Eldar!
It was so hard to find it.

No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.

Wow, that would be really new to me.

Good good. It is always nice to learn something new.

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all. -Letter 153

The part in capital is my own.

Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. It´s just always the elves or Eldar.

One example:

I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didn´t wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.

No he is speaking about the promise made to the Elves. The promise was not the one given to the Half-Elven. Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.

The full quote actually shows that Elrond and the Half-elven are once again separated from the Eldar.

"But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea - but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-letter 154

Quite clear he mentions the Eldar and then address Elrond and Arwen separately showing he does not include them with the elves.

"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.
It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.

Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.

[elbenprincess]

I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:

Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him

Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.

Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.

The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.

Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose

Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.

THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil

That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I don´t know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:

At first, the name was applied to all Elves, but after the summons of the Valar, it came to be used only of the peoples who followed the summons and began the Great Journey.

The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).

Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Where because of that?:

His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesn´t say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.

Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.

Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?

Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.

Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.

You have a point, I don´t have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasn´t even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. I´m sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesn´t make a difference.

No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.

It doesn´t show that he would have eternal life (which he doesn´t have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:

'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring

I again don´t have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.

sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it it´s illegal, it´s possible.

Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.

Bt still Tolkiens said

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings

The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.