Racism and Tolkien.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by KamexKoopa

most posters from it have either forgetten or left, but still )

Well, I'm actually still subscribed to number of topics (even a decade old ones ) so get mail notifications

But that's just an aside

[KamexKoopa]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Well, I'm actually still subscribed to number of topics (even a decade old ones ) so get mail notifications

But that's just an aside

Haha nice! I've been looking back at a lot of the past pages, there are some long dead threads that make me wish I'd have been a member at the time, it's making interesting reading D: I wasn't allowed on the internet at the time, but still

[Ulvenok]

On the topic of racism, of course Tolkien was a racist and so are you. I saw a lecture about predjudices held by some neuro scientist. Anyway racism is in all of us, we are all hostile towards people who are different than ourself, and that for a good reason. If Tolkien would have been a black person writing these books in Africa the orcs would be white devils and the elves would be tall black men. Even if you say you're not a racist you're lying to yourself, because you are. Just like we got different tastes in music we got different tastes when it comes to appearances. Of course one can get over these differences if one gets to know that person, but on a very primal level we are all racists even Tolkien which is apparent reading his books.

[alatar]

Ulvenok, interestingly, your post here was predicted with high probability, as you'd hinted at Tolkien and racism elsewhere. Anyway...

What or who defines a 'race?' In Tolkien's world, it may be more clear earlier in time, with orcs and elves and dwarves and men, but by the fourth age?

And me, I think more of families and genotypes than names and phenotypes. When you say 'all,' you might be painting with too broad a brush.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

On the topic of racism, of course Tolkien was a racist and so are you. I saw a lecture about predjudices held by some neuro scientist. Anyway racism is in all of us, we are all hostile towards people who are different than ourself, and that for a good reason. If Tolkien would have been a black person writing these books in Africa the orcs would be white devils and the elves would be tall black men. Even if you say you're not a racist you're lying to yourself, because you are. Just like we got different tastes in music we got different tastes when it comes to appearances. Of course one can get over these differences if one gets to know that person, but on a very primal level we are all racists even Tolkien which is apparent reading his books.

I would certainly take issue personally with the suggestion that I am "hostile" toward anybody who looks different.

As for Tolkien, his lack of racial prejudice seems apparent in his rejection of it regarding Jews. In Letters # 29.

I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood (in himself) as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.

[Ulvenok]

I think the lecture lasted for two something hours. I wish I would be able to sum it all up in one post but I can't. We are all to some extent prejudicial towards people. We can hide it, we can try to block it but at the end of the day we are prejudicial. It's the same with racism, the only reason you're "not" a racist is because you are too politically correct to admit it. Nature is racist and it's in your nature to be racist too, we shouldn't deny what we are, it's not healthy for our species or for you as an individual. Racism exists in order for us to find a partner, carry on our genes and sort out bad genes in our species gene pool by not having sex with them or approve of their culture or behaviour, whatever it is that we don't like about the "race".

I think race and being racist is a bad word, because it's easily mixed up with hitlerism and has all sort of bad connotations. It's not always appearance or skin colour, it could be language, culture all sort of different things. Today we are all suffering because our society is one crazy place, we supress so much of what we are because society won't accept it. People with little to no education have tons of children and it's allowed. In places like China and India they have implemented one child policies, even as far back as the 19th century people in India castrated criminals. People are so afraid to look at themself in the mirror that on many sites I would be banned for saying this.

Anyway nature is racist and so is Tolkien, he is just too smart to admit it.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I think the lecture lasted for two something hours. I wish I would be able to sum it all up in one post but I can't. We are all to some extent prejudicial towards people. We can hide it, we can try to block it but at the end of the day we are prejudicial. It's the same with racism, the only reason you're "not" a racist is because you are too politically correct to admit it. Nature is racist and it's in your nature to be racist too, we shouldn't deny what we are, it's not healthy for our species or for you as an individual. Racism exists in order for us to find a partner, carry on our genes and sort out bad genes in our species gene pool by not having sex with them or approve of their culture or behaviour, whatever it is that we don't like about the "race".

I think race and being racist is a bad word, because it's easily mixed up with hitlerism and has all sort of bad connotations. It's not always appearance or skin colour, it could be language, culture all sort of different things. Today we are all suffering because our society is one crazy place, we supress so much of what we are because society won't accept it. People with little to no education have tons of children and it's allowed. In places like China and India they have implemented one child policies, even as far back as the 19th century people in India castrated criminals. People are so afraid to look at themself in the mirror that on many sites I would be banned for saying this.

Anyway nature is racist and so is Tolkien, he is just too smart to admit it.

Whatever biology behind it, proven or just speculated, lectured about or hushed up, the thread, I believe, is rather about whether Tolkien was being 'deliberately racist' (which he was not in my opinion, especially given today's overly 'politically correct' approaches that seem to me rather to be overly extreme reaction to what was considered 'norm' by the end of 19th century and at that again quite far from what would be just sensible, but that's another story whatsoever) therefore it seems to me you're quite off the mark here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

....are described as swarthy or squint-eyed.

One of the travellers from the south in the Prancing Pony, for example, is described as a "squint-eyed ill-favoured fellow".

Errrr, in British English, a "squint" means cross-eyed, or one or both eyes having a sideways aspect; sometimes the connotation is "sidelong" or "shifty." The American usage meaning "partially closed" or even "slanted" was completely alien to JRRT-- even Christopher Tolkien, just a few years ago, was quite surprised and nonplussed to learn that to Americans the word means something so different.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

[I]... The American usage meaning "partially closed" or even "slanted" was completely alien to JRRT-- even Christopher Tolkien... was quite surprised and nonplussed to learn that to Americans the word means something so different.

So was I. As a noun squint just means a strabismus. Very common and would have been more so in earlier times without access to corrective glasses and surgery. It does mean you re iable to look shifty since you literally can't look people in the eye.

Of course Morsul wouldn't be off the hook here as we dont make a distinction for hispanic...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ulvenok, calling *all* others racist is in itself prejudicial - and that without the benefit of knowing any of us personally! As a matter of fact, you are new on the Downs and probably haven't had time to read our posts or PM with others to find out what they're like. For that reason I ask you to refrain from calling everyone names - we take pride in being polite and friendly here, and the kind of discussion you are attempting to provoke does not comply with our policies.

I have been here for 11 years now (most of that time as a moderator) and have had the opportunity to converse with numerous members both virtually and personally. I have not met one person whom I would call racist. We also span a number of various religions and (usually! ) can carry on discussions without insulting each other.

I suggest you check out the sticky threads at the top of the Novices and Newcomers forum index as well as the index for the Barrow-Downs forum. Those guidelines are vital to our identity as an open, welcoming forum. Then post your opinions thoughtfully and politely. Thank you!

[Nerwen]

Ulvenok, just because a scientist presents a theory does not mean that theory is a proven, incontrovertible truth. I fear you are succumbing to "studies-have-shown" syndrome. For my part, I will continue to believe that racism is purely culturally acquired and to maintain that I myself am not racist. You can believe whatever you like. However, it is, I think, better if you don't couch your opinions- because that's all this is, an opinion- in the terms of "if you don't agree with me, you're lying to yourself". It's no kind of argument, and just tends to get up people's noses, quite frankly.
Besides, aesthetic preference is *not* racism. I get the impression you're confusing the two, and that's where the problem lies.

Anyway, didn't I just see you arguing that the inhabitants of Valinor were meant to represent native Americans, thus (in your opinion) showing Tolkien was *not* racist?

[Zigûr]

I think it's worth remembering that Professor Tolkien's work tends to portray racial prejudice as a source of wasteful conflict and a symptom of evil: Elves vs Dwarves (especially in the case of the Petty-Dwarves), Númenóreans vs "Lesser Men", Castamir vs Eldacar etc. While I agree that the portrayal of the Easterlings and the Haradrim for example may not necessarily be sensitive by today's standards I believe they are intentionally meant to convey a sense of Otherness in which we are encouraged to perceive how Sauron (and ultimately Morgoth) exploits superficial differences of nation and race to exacerbate conflict. Racial prejudice was a weapon of the Enemy in the same way that he was the Enemy of reason and clear thinking, denying his slaves the opportunity to think past fear and hate. Many people may have prejudices, but they also have minds with which they can think past them and perceive them as irrational; it's when they fail to do so (or are inhibited from doing so by some other power) that problems arise. I would also argue on a semantic level that having irrational prejudices does not necessarily make one "racist"; that would involve accepting that irrationality as somehow valid as opposed to rejecting it and reasoning past it. Personally I find Professor Tolkien's work to be very profound in its condemnation of racial prejudice.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think it's worth remembering that Professor Tolkien's work tends to portray racial prejudice as a source of wasteful conflict and a symptom of evil: Elves vs Dwarves (especially in the case of the Petty-Dwarves), Númenóreans vs "Lesser Men", Castamir vs Eldacar etc.

Also, King Helm "Hammerhand" of Rohan, first insulting and then murdering one of "mixed" blood named Freca. That cost Helm's people dearly, with Freca's son allying himself with enemies of Rohan.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

On the topic of racism, of course Tolkien was a racist and so are you. I saw a lecture about predjudices held by some neuro scientist. Anyway racism is in all of us, we are all hostile towards people who are different than ourself, and that for a good reason. If Tolkien would have been a black person writing these books in Africa the orcs would be white devils and the elves would be tall black men. Even if you say you're not a racist you're lying to yourself, because you are. Just like we got different tastes in music we got different tastes when it comes to appearances. Of course one can get over these differences if one gets to know that person, but on a very primal level we are all racists even Tolkien which is apparent reading his books.

There's racism and there's racial differences. Please don't confuse the two. Saying that black people are black is like saying that the BD webite is black-and-green themed. Saying that they aren't black is like saying that our site is pink with purple polkadots. There's a difference between saying a fact and insulting people because of their skin colour or origin.

In the same way that a Chinese man will remain Chinese no matter how many times you'll say that he's Ukrainian, an Easterling or a Southron would remain just as Tolkien described them.

If you think that Tolkien was racist because his antagonists resembled Eastern/African people, read The Silmarillion. You hate some Elves more than you hate orcs. And there's the story of Bor - a rare thing indeed, but still.

And what do you think of the Druedain then? They are the most ugly (and suffering from racism within the legendarium as well!) but the most bestest people from the free folk.

EDIT: xed with Zigur and Inzil

[alatar]

Forgot to mentions trolls before. How'd *that* happen?

[Ulvenok]

There's racism and there's racial differences. Please don't confuse the two.

Please, get off your moral high horse. So many times I have argued with people who make up all sort of complicated linguistic stuff to supress or hide the fact that racism exists within ALL organisms. Evolution isn't pretty but it's for real, so is racism. One ought to accept it and deal with it accordingly.

As for Tolkien, I think the haradrim have a direct equivalent in real life. That Tolkien chose to portray black people and middle eastern looking people as "lesser men" is if not racist...would be interpreted as racist by middle eastern and black people today. Galadriel one has to try see Tolkien from other "races" point of view. I'm quite sure if some middle eastern man created a fiction where the white man was portrayed as "lesser men" you'd thnk that is racist too. That you don't see this or choose not to see this proves my point, everyone are at their core racist or to use a better term prejudicial. Accept it, deal with it, but don't deny it...

Oh btw...

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want." - Bill Watterson

I LOVE that quote....adds to list of favorite quotes xD