An Unexpected Journey, or the morning after

[Lalwendë]

Hang on....Azog was killed? Really? I got the impression right away that he wasn't dead and Thorin was mistaken. Why would chopping a hand or limb off kill you, presuming the blood loss was staunched? We've all heard colourful tales about farmers and hunters who have crawled for miles to safety after losing a limb, so a hand isn't that much of a big deal.

[Ben K.]

We get that impression because we expect such medical absurdities from movies. Losing a limb like that needs instant cauterisation and restoration of the amount of blood volume he is clearly shown losing in the scene. Neither occurs. Thorin is perfectly correct to assert with confidence that Azog is dead, he would be in real life without modern medicine.

Now I'm not sure about any necromancing, but Rhod is entirely correct in noting that the scene discussing the necromancer feeds directly into our reveal of an alive Azog. It's pretty strong evidence actually, since that how PJ edits.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ben K.

We get that impression because we expect such medical absurdities from movies. Losing a limb like that needs instant cauterisation and restoration of the amount of blood volume he is clearly shown losing in the scene. Neither occurs. Thorin is perfectly correct to assert with confidence that Azog is dead, he would be in real life without modern medicine.

Now I'm not sure about any necromancing, but Rhod is entirely correct in noting that the scene discussing the necromancer feeds directly into our reveal of an alive Azog. It's pretty strong evidence actually, since that how PJ edits.

Plenty of medieval soldiers suffered terrible injuries on the battlefield and lived - and medical care certainly wouldn't have been easy to find at say Towton or Tewkesbury. This Azog character is also presumably made of sterner stuff than a man. However, I can see that Thorin might think he had met his end, as Orcs and Goblins can't have had a reputation of caring for their sick and injured (and yet Azog clearly was in command of lesser goblins who were eager to help him, even at risk of their own lives, as seen by his treatment of his war band in the scene where he confronts Thorin in the trees). He probably rightly assumed he had crawled into a hole and died. But I didn't assume that.

[Galadriel55]

Or maybe it's purely psychological. Thorin wanted him dead so badly that he hoped and convinced himself that Azog gave him the Ring for his birthday... erm, I mean, that he died of his wounds.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or maybe it's purely psychological. Thorin wanted him dead so badly that he hoped and convinced himself that Azog gave him the Ring for his birthday... erm, I mean, that he died of his wounds.

Now, I know you're having a joke but.....it's possible that it was done to show how stubborn Dwarves can be?

...No, probably not. I'm very much down on the Azog thing, so it was probably just clumsily done

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now, I know you're having a joke but.....it's possible that it was done to show how stubborn Dwarves can be?

...No, probably not. I'm very much down on the Azog thing, so it was probably just clumsily done

What I have heard is that the entire Azog subplot is a very late addition, even that it wasn't thought of until after filming had begun- which might explain why it doesn't seem to make much sense.

As for the "zombie" business- that, as I said, appears to be just a fan theory. I certainly hope so, as it would be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I have heard is that the entire Azog subplot is a very late addition, even that it wasn't thought of until after filming had begun- which might explain why it doesn't seem to make much sense.

I've read this as well. What continues to baffle me is why Bolg could not have served this purpose. He would certainly have more motivation - avenging the death of his father; although would that make an Orc too sympathetic? The film tells us that Azog "swore to wipe out Durin's line" but never tells us why. I can only see it making much sense if it is somehow resolved as having its origins in Sauron's efforts to recover the last of the Seven, although I can't imagine that being handled especially elegantly. Indeed some of the invented/altered action scenes (Azog's hunters in Eriador, Azog rather than the Orcs of the High Pass in Out of the Frying-Pan Into the Fire) seem suggestive rather of the misfortunes which afflicted Thráin in his efforts to reclaim Erebor one hundred years earlier: "as soon as he was abroad with few companions he was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him, Orc waylaid him, evil birds shadowed his path" etc, i.e. a series of directed attacks rather than the generally unrelated accidents which befell Thorin and Company for the majority of their journey.
I don't know, the whole Thorin plot in the films leaves me feeling rather depressed to be honest. I can't help but shake that feeling that the film would be so much more refreshing if we'd received the amusingly pompous and long-winded but ultimately good-if-you-don't-expect-too-much Thorin of the novel over the Hollywood stereotype we ended up getting and largely eliminated this Azog business which was one of the contributing factors to my impression of the film being rather overstuffed.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I have heard is that the entire Azog subplot is a very late addition, even that it wasn't thought of until after filming had begun- which might explain why it doesn't seem to make much sense.

I suspect as much - it has hints of the nonsense over the Elves turning up at Helm's Deep. And I suspect they hadn't even got a name for 'Azog' until late in the day as the Lego set "Attack of the Wargs" has him with the name of 'Yazneg'.