Unknown beings!?

[Ulvenok]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar.

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar.

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

Unlike Bombadil those creatures or spirits are explained, Bombadil is not an ent neither is he an maia. That much is certain...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.
I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.

I doubt Morgoth would have dared to personally fight by that point, bereft of his minions. After all, it was only the fear of being humiliated and losing their respect that moved him to accept Fingolfin, a mere Elf's challenge. Morgoth was a coward at heart.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

[Ulvenok]

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

EDIT: I don't remember the exact phrase but I think at some point there were "other" beings or spirits that Eru sent into arda. It's very foggy, but I remember it clearly. (Not named)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I can believe that he didn't put up much of a fight by that point but someone did cut off his legs when he was caught in the depths of Angband. Morgoth actually was killed, although it was after being brought back to the West. According to the Professor in Morgoth's Ring he was "made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates". Obviously Mandos, another Vala, did that. By that point the Valar did have the power to kill him, albeit only because he had so thoroughly confined himself to a single body as a consequence of his own evil. As I say, Morgoth is a bad example because of how drastically his personal power was reduced over the course of the First Age (from being the mightiest of the Ainur to being relatively weak in comparison to the Valar). In that way it doesn't seem to me that it would be beyond the capacity of Ëonwë, mightiest of the Maiar, to at least be the one who subdued him beneath Angband. He was the Captain of the Host of the West so presumably there was no one of higher spiritual statue (ie any Valar) present. By comparison the Professor writes in Morgoth's Ring that it took Manwë himself to subdue Melkor at the end of the Siege of Utumno.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

While all the Valar were of the Ainur (as were the Maiar), it wasn't only they who took part in the Music. Some of the Ainur remained with Ilúvatar outside Arda.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Silmarillion Ainulindalë

The Valar were only the greatest of those known to the Elves. They did not know the number of the Maia.

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

[Morsul the Dark]

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

[Ulvenok]

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

I also wonder what Gandalf said to Tom before he left for the undying lands. Whatever he said would most likely reveal Tom's real identity and status in relation to Gandalf. Then we have the dream that Frodo had when he sailed for Valinor, that reminded him of how he felt when sleeping at Bombadil's house. This also is a sign of Bombadil's divine status in the world. Anyway I still have a small recollection of there being some phrase speaking of "other" spirits that eru sent into arda unlike the valar and maiar.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

Of course it makes sense. Melkor is on a self destructive path where he divests himself of his own power. He becomes lesser and lesser over time. Read Morgoth's Ring in the History of Middle-earth series. It explains a good deal about how the greatest of the Valar is brought low.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Melkor was defeated.. not destroyed. Yes.. it is a case of semantics, but an important one. Melkor was defeated first just before the Elves arrived. He was defeated and imprisoned. He was defeated again after the War of Wrath and put forth from the world. Ungoliant had him all but beaten until the Balrogs saved him. Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

Bombadil IS a complete unknown (and therefore fun to discuss). However, when I put something in quotes, that means the statement is a QUOTATION. The statement about UNgoliant comes straight from the Silmarillion... Chapter 8 "Of The Darkening Of Valinor".... second paragraph... a little more than half way through.

[Ulvenok]

"from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service."

So you're saying she is an maia then, who managed to drain varda's wells dry and suck the sap out of the trees. And confuse the host of the valar that hunted them (Tulkas even), use unlight whatever that is to cloak Melkor and her when travelling through Valinor. And then to top all of that, trap melkor in her net...trap a valar in her net. If she is an maia she has some extraordinaire abilities.

Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

He chose to duel with Fingolfin, Fingolfin was said to be the strongest, most steadfast, and most valiant of Finwë's sons, and some have named him the greatest warrior of all the Children of Ilúvatar. If he had not chosen to duel with him he would have been able to make short work of him, he eventually also did kill him. I'm sure if he had been able to he would have escaped from Ungoliant himself but he couldn't, that he didn't points towards Ungoliant's above maia status in my opinion.

Not to say an vala would not be able to corrupt another vala like being close to himself in power. Also that quote:

from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service.

I think one has to put it into context since before it it's said something like "but it's said among the eldar" or whatever. It's by no means absolutely true, It'd be nice to have some kind of clear distinction between maia and vala.