The hobbit contradictions... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aganzir · 01-14-2013, 01:46 PM

In the novel, the dwarves are losers and Bilbo has to do everything for them. Peter Jackson wants to portray them as heroes ("We are warriors! All of us!") who won the Battle of Azanulbizar.

I somehow doubt we'll see a transition towards the more serious in the later films. Beorn will probably be a killing machine, but Thranduil (the Dwarf Racist Party King) is already a huge joke on the interwebs.

As for Gimli, I would initially and without any references say that he's more of a fighter than Thorin's Company. At least in LOTR he's portrayed more like one (heavily armed, openly wearing armour) than any of the Hobbit dwarves. Also when you think of the little encounter with the trolls, Bifur, Bombur and Thorin were the only dwarves to put up a fight.

In the film, everything is extremely unrealistic though. As somebody pointed out in the review thread, after everything that happens in the Goblin Town, you don't really believe Thorin could be hurt so bad so easily.

Oh and speaking of the Uruk-hai, I'm seeing similarities between them and Azog's bunch. Azog seems to me even more built up and vicious than the Uruk-hai, who are supposed to be orcs in perfection.

I guess this just proves what we pretty much knew after the LOTR films - PJ & co twist the plot to serve their purposes even if their changes are irrational.

Ulvenok · 01-14-2013, 02:53 PM

Well check these images:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QDGL1PlE2v...0/_DSC3122.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I9mUo-AXvI...0/DSCN3260.JPG
Bolg is a giant much like Azog, now let's look at lurtz.
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2...r20middjf4.jpg
It seems to me that Azog was near Uruk Hai size, maybe a tiny bit bigger but not much. Which means that Gimli killed 42 Uruk hais while a party of 13 and a wizard and a stealthy hobbit couldn't deal with a wolf pack of what...15 orcs? Yeah I think also that if Jackson wanted the dwarves to be running throughout the movie, he should have equipped them poorly. Then maybe armed them when they got to dale...but as it is now, 13 warriors and a wizard is running from 13 orcs. Gimli a less battle hardened dwarf killed 42 Azog sized uruks at the battle of helm's deep.

The movie doesn't make much sense, they spent ages making it yet I have seen more thought through movies made by people in less than a year. Something went horribly wrong when they made this movie, I wonder who is to blame if not all of them. In the lord of the rings trilogy one could nitpick a few things that was done badly. But they aren't wholly bad movies, the hobbit part one deserves to be REMADE as it stands now. It's horrible, truly horrible. It's kind of pathetic to be crying about it like this, but it's kind of annoying. Anyone on this forum would be able to do it better I'm sure...

Morsul the Dark · 01-14-2013, 02:54 PM

I don't see the contradiction the ran from a few orcs and wargs and ran from a Bunch of goblins...

Aganzir · 01-14-2013, 04:50 PM

When you think of blockbusters, it's not like many of them had a coherent and realistic plot anyway. There are certain things that are supposed to happen in the movie, and the characters and the realism value have to bend in order to carry out the plot with all its holes. When you go to movies, it sometimes feels as if everybody was telling the same story, only with different faces and details.

The problem with doing The Hobbit after LOTR is that even though it's technically a prologue, everything should be bigger and more important so as to attract audiences (PJ seems to think) even though killing Smaug is nothing compared to Sauron. Thus we have huge orcs half a century before Saruman bred the Uruk-hai and so forth.

About the 15 or so orcs/wargs... in the dwarves' defense, they were in the open, and the wargs are fast and strong and would probably have done more damage than the orcs themselves. The elves (who were also quite few) had horses and bows which made the situation a bit more even... but my inner khazad still disapproves of them stealing the thunder. And Gimli killed 42 Uruk-hai in a melee that lasted an entire night and was in a place that he was defending against attackers, which gave him more room for maneuvering. These are just possible explanations for why the dwarves ran - but I still agree it's ridiculous they were so okay with, and good at, fighting in the Goblin Town then!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Anyone on this forum would be able to do it better I'm sure...

Well I would certainly make as good a Fili as Dean O'Gorman!

I seriously consider working out in order to get more muscles and be therefore a more believable dwarf!

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-15-2013, 01:26 AM

Ahhh- but the question then is-

why did the Dwarves run away from the fight between Rocktimus Prime and Granitron?

Alcidas · 01-18-2013, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Ahhh- but the question then is-

why did the Dwarves run away from the fight between Rocktimus Prime and Granitron?

Because they were stoned?

alatar · 10-17-2013, 10:08 AM

Twice now, when I randomly turned on HBO I was treated to the 'Escape from Goblintown' scene from AUJ (starting around the 14 hour timestamp). I saw this as a portend, calling out to me, asking that I view and make commentary. So here we go:

When Gandalf reappears when things look darkest for the dwarves, he uses some spell or other to flatten both friend and foe. Is he limited to using this spell only once an Age, as to me it might have come in handy in his later years in Moria, in Gondor, at the Black Gate...
During the second viewing, I tried to determine the number of goblins killed by Gandalf and the Dwarves. I assumed that any goblin hit with a weapon or pushed from a ledge was killed. Eventually I gave up counting. These dwarves and wizard are a killing juggernaut. If only Elrond had sent a few dwarves to Helm's Deep...
While the Company slaughters their way to the exit, I couldn't help but notice that the dwarves seem to use more swords than I'd think this race was known for. Where are all of the axes?
Why, towards the end, when the large goblin force descends on them, are they suddenly concerned? Couldn't a few simply hold a narrow passage while the others escape, and then Gandalf bring the ceiling down?
Where is this ferocity once they leave the caves and are confronted by Azog? Maybe they gave all leaving Goblintown, and so have nothing left.

Another thing that bothers me, and I mention is here as it's within this part of the movie. Bilbo, in the movie, basically steals the Ring. In the books, from memory, he stumbles upon it as Gollum has dropped it long ago and obviously didn't care enough to find it until it was needed.

Anyway, so how can I feel good about Bilbo and bad about Gollum when the former truly stole from the later?

Inziladun · 10-17-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

While the Company slaughters their way to the exit, I couldn't help but notice that the dwarves seem to use more swords than I'd think this race was known for. Where are all of the axes?

That's something that puzzled me from the book as well. Thorin's use of Orcrist seems impractical.

We are told in FOTR that Hobbits generally were between 3 and 4 feet tall, and "not much shorter" than Dwarves. Bilbo was able to use the dagger Sting as a short sword. How could Thorin effectively use a full size sword? I'm quite a bit taller than a Dwarf (though hardly Thingol-sized), and a longsword would be a bit cumbersome for me. Also, Orcrist was made for the Noldor in Gondolin, who were pretty tall. Was Thorin trying to compensate for something?

01-14-2013, 01:46 PM	#1
Aganzir Woman of Secret Shadow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells Posts: 4,511	In the novel, the dwarves are losers and Bilbo has to do everything for them. Peter Jackson wants to portray them as heroes ("We are warriors! All of us!") who won the Battle of Azanulbizar. I somehow doubt we'll see a transition towards the more serious in the later films. Beorn will probably be a killing machine, but Thranduil (the Dwarf Racist Party King) is already a huge joke on the interwebs. As for Gimli, I would initially and without any references say that he's more of a fighter than Thorin's Company. At least in LOTR he's portrayed more like one (heavily armed, openly wearing armour) than any of the Hobbit dwarves. Also when you think of the little encounter with the trolls, Bifur, Bombur and Thorin were the only dwarves to put up a fight. In the film, everything is extremely unrealistic though. As somebody pointed out in the review thread, after everything that happens in the Goblin Town, you don't really believe Thorin could be hurt so bad so easily. Oh and speaking of the Uruk-hai, I'm seeing similarities between them and Azog's bunch. Azog seems to me even more built up and vicious than the Uruk-hai, who are supposed to be orcs in perfection. I guess this just proves what we pretty much knew after the LOTR films - PJ & co twist the plot to serve their purposes even if their changes are irrational. __________________ He bit me, and I was not gentle.

01-14-2013, 02:54 PM	#3
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	I don't see the contradiction the ran from a few orcs and wargs and ran from a Bunch of goblins... __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

01-15-2013, 01:26 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Ahhh- but the question then is- why did the Dwarves run away from the fight between Rocktimus Prime and Granitron? __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-17-2013, 10:08 AM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Twice now, when I randomly turned on HBO I was treated to the 'Escape from Goblintown' scene from AUJ (starting around the 14 hour timestamp). I saw this as a portend, calling out to me, asking that I view and make commentary. So here we go: When Gandalf reappears when things look darkest for the dwarves, he uses some spell or other to flatten both friend and foe. Is he limited to using this spell only once an Age, as to me it might have come in handy in his later years in Moria, in Gondor, at the Black Gate... During the second viewing, I tried to determine the number of goblins killed by Gandalf and the Dwarves. I assumed that any goblin hit with a weapon or pushed from a ledge was killed. Eventually I gave up counting. These dwarves and wizard are a killing juggernaut. If only Elrond had sent a few dwarves to Helm's Deep... While the Company slaughters their way to the exit, I couldn't help but notice that the dwarves seem to use more swords than I'd think this race was known for. Where are all of the axes? Why, towards the end, when the large goblin force descends on them, are they suddenly concerned? Couldn't a few simply hold a narrow passage while the others escape, and then Gandalf bring the ceiling down? Where is this ferocity once they leave the caves and are confronted by Azog? Maybe they gave all leaving Goblintown, and so have nothing left. Another thing that bothers me, and I mention is here as it's within this part of the movie. Bilbo, in the movie, basically steals the Ring. In the books, from memory, he stumbles upon it as Gollum has dropped it long ago and obviously didn't care enough to find it until it was needed. Anyway, so how can I feel good about Bilbo and bad about Gollum when the former truly stole from the later? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-14-2013, 02:53 PM	#2
Ulvenok Banned Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 41	Well check these images: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QDGL1PlE2v...0/_DSC3122.JPG http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I9mUo-AXvI...0/DSCN3260.JPG Bolg is a giant much like Azog, now let's look at lurtz. http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2...r20middjf4.jpg It seems to me that Azog was near Uruk Hai size, maybe a tiny bit bigger but not much. Which means that Gimli killed 42 Uruk hais while a party of 13 and a wizard and a stealthy hobbit couldn't deal with a wolf pack of what...15 orcs? Yeah I think also that if Jackson wanted the dwarves to be running throughout the movie, he should have equipped them poorly. Then maybe armed them when they got to dale...but as it is now, 13 warriors and a wizard is running from 13 orcs. Gimli a less battle hardened dwarf killed 42 Azog sized uruks at the battle of helm's deep. The movie doesn't make much sense, they spent ages making it yet I have seen more thought through movies made by people in less than a year. Something went horribly wrong when they made this movie, I wonder who is to blame if not all of them. In the lord of the rings trilogy one could nitpick a few things that was done badly. But they aren't wholly bad movies, the hobbit part one deserves to be REMADE as it stands now. It's horrible, truly horrible. It's kind of pathetic to be crying about it like this, but it's kind of annoying. Anyone on this forum would be able to do it better I'm sure...