Noldor or Numenoreans

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure where the description is of Eldarin men being 6 foot 6 comes from.

Hammond and Scull published this information in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings.

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

I have seen the quote about the Noldor being around 7ft, but the notes says to look into the further writings in the Unfinished Tales. The Unfinished Tales has them at about 6,4.

Unfinished Tales describes Galadriel at 6 foot 4, but not the average Noldo that I'm aware of.

The average Noldor is not one from the royal houses and nothing like the tallest.

My first quote is about Eldarin Men -- that's a general description, especially given that it notes Eldarin Kings and leaders were taller. The second quote refers to the normal height of the Eldar, especially the Noldor, at seven feet.

Aragorn was the tallest of the company, but Boromir, little less in height was broader and heavier in build.

I don't see that as a problem. Aragorn was probably 'at least' 6 foot 6 according to JRRT.

Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

So, the same source as the one about Eldarin men.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hammond and Scull published this information in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings.

I don't doubt that they come from the book, but wondering where did Tolkien write this. Is there any note in the book from where they got the reference.

Unfinished Tales describes Galadriel at 6 foot 4, but not the average Noldo that I'm aware of.

This is true, I was getting ahead of myself there and it was my mistake. I was cross referencing with Galadriel's title as Nerwen 'man-maiden', which implies she was the height of male Noldor's but there is no statement saying she was the average height for the Noldor, just one of their best athletes.

However, we do know Celeborn was tall for a Teleri elf. His name seems to have meant 'silver-tall'. Since he is 6'4 can assume the majority of the Sindar/Teleri were around 6ft. This fits in as I said with Legolas being shorter than Boromir.

My first quote is about Eldarin Men -- that's a general description, especially given that it notes Eldarin Kings and leaders were taller. The second quote refers to the normal height of the Eldar, especially the Noldor, at seven feet.

I have seen the second quote and it comes from Dwarves and Men, but it cannot be made to work with the text.

If Celeborn a tall and royal Sindar was around 6'4 then how could the average height for the Eldar be 7ft? The same applies for Legolas, who was of high Sindarin origin, but is shorter than Boromir.

I don't see that as a problem. Aragorn was probably 'at least' 6 foot 6 according to JRRT.

Yes, but Boromir is around 6'4 and taller than Legolas too. Boromir is also around the same height as Celeborn, who was tall for the Sindar. So again this indicates they must have been shorter than 7ft and closer to maybe 6ft.

So, the same source as the one about Eldarin men.

It would be nice if he indicated precisely where he got the quote from. I will have a look to see if there is anything else.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't doubt that they come from the book, but wondering where did Tolkien write this. Is there any note in the book from where they got the reference.

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

However, we do know Celeborn was tall for a Teleri elf. His name seems to have meant 'silver-tall'. Since he is 6'4 can assume the majority of the Sindar/Teleri were around 6ft. This fits in as I said with Legolas being shorter than Boromir.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

I have seen the second quote and it comes from Dwarves and Men, but it cannot be made to work with the text.

If Celeborn a tall and royal Sindar was around 6'4 then how could the average height for the Eldar be 7ft? The same applies for Legolas, who was of high Sindarin origin, but is shorter than Boromir.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

Yes, but Boromir is around 6'4 and taller than Legolas too. Boromir is also around the same height as Celeborn, who was tall for the Sindar. So again this indicates they must have been shorter than 7ft and closer to maybe 6ft.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

Thanks for that.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

That's the same note where he says that Celeborn was tall for a Teleri and gives the meaning of his name. This is from a very late account of Galdriel/Celeborn's history.

Somewhat less in build is ambiguous, considering a little less in height for Boromir is aroudn 2 inches.

What we can be certain of is even a very tall Telerian Prince is only about the same height as the tallest of the Noldor women. This does indicate quite more than a couple of inches difference.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

This is true, nothing was put in print yet, but all the sources seem to have been written at the same time and the account in the Unfinished Tales is certainly the most detailed.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

This is possible, there is no reason to go as low as 6ft, but is being just a couple of inches taller than the norm enough to be given the name praising your height?
I would say no.

As you said he could easily change Galadriel's height, but it seems the more detailed account.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

Yes and he mentioned how Legolas was immensely strong too.

It's true that the particular passage strongly indicates, even very strongly indicates that Boromir was the second tallest, but it does not confirm this fact for certain.

Though one thing it does confirm is Aragorn and Boromir were stronger. Legolas appears to agree with him on this matter too, either that or he is being very lazy.

All this does confirm is that even after their waining the Numenoreans were stronger than the Sindar, but the Sindar as a whole are weaker than the Noldor.

However, the House of Hador are stronger than the Noldor Princes.

EDIT

Off topic, but it is interesting that Christopher Tolkien speculates that Galadriel and Celeborn may have been present when Feanor's sons sacked Doriath and actually played a part in helping Elwing escape. If this is the case then I wonder what Galadriel's feelings on Feanor was then.

[Galin]

What we can be certain of is even a very tall Telerian Prince is only about the same height as the tallest of the Noldor women. This does indicate quite more than a couple of inches difference.

But maybe there is room in: the Lady no less tall than the Lord. The general meaning could be that even 'Silver-tall' does not tower over Nerwende Artanis, because she herself is the tallest of Elf women. They are both tall, if not exactly the same height; although I suppose one could also press 'no less' to mean exactly that.

If there is some room we might have an average of 6:2 compared to a Celeborn standing at 6:5 or even 6:6... and so the Teler with the 'tall name' could be as much as four inches taller than the average Teler, if only equal to the average Noldo.

The reason I don't go to 6 feet is because 'somewhat less' for the Teleri would then be a half foot less that the average Elda of 6:6, which seems too much to me for somewhat less, and way too much for the 7 foot idea.

Even 6:2 seems notably less than 6:6 (plus taller for Kings and leaders) to me, but if Celeborn Silver-tall is 6:4 then we have to decrease the average Teler even more.

This is possible, there is no reason to go as low as 6ft, but is being just a couple of inches taller than the norm enough to be given the name praising your height? I would say no.

Well, his relative tallness would still be distinguishing (like his silver hair), so maybe... yes

Just had a thought. Isn't the tallest of all Eru's children, Elwe, a Teler? An exception I guess.

[Morthoron]

Against the ravages of the common cold, I would choose the Noldor every time.

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if the Numenoreans were particularly afflicted by Man-flu..