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#1 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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I can tell my personal opinion about what it did, then. Since the "evil will" which suddenly seems to appear and weaken and such occur pretty often in Middle-Earth (when Frodo is in Morgul valley, when Riders appear, on Caradhras, and so on - and in neither of the cases it is explicitely connected to the Ring, the Ring may at most "trigger" it - but in any case, it is not the wielder of the Ring who triggers it), I do not feel it necessary to connect it to Saruman's ring specifically (Sauron also does not hold his Ring at the time, yet the evil will weakens the Hobbits as they try to walk to Mordor, and that's not even conscious effort, since Sauron doesn't know about them). There are many possibilities, the effect of speeding up the Orcs and weakening Aragorn and co. could have been simply Saruman's personal power (he was a powerful being, anyway), maybe even "unconscious", or just some "air" coming from his seat at Isengard. Or a "spell", if you will. So my personal opinion is that it didn't really have anything to do with the ring (not directly, at most the ring could have e.g. "amplified" Saruman's power, but Saruman could have done the same thing even without it, only to a lesser effect, for example). But that is purely personal opinion. You can think of what you find the most probable. As for the Ring, one could think about several ways Saruman could have decided to use it. Once again, listing some personal opinions, but based on what we know about Saruman. I think he could have chosen to imbue his ring with power to, for example, give him more power or abilities to control people, "amplify his Voice", and similar things. Or, what I think is also quite plausible, the ring might support further his skills in craft and making of more rings and more "technology" (all this "blasting fire" and things, you name it). Or both, or more. Quote:
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![]() Anyway, these were just some thoughts related to the topic. I think there might also be still some old thread about this topic, too, if you want to see perhaps some thoughts people had about the topic here. EDIT: crossposted with Zigur, who is apparently of similar opinion and is able to say the same things in much more brief way ![]()
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 01-26-2013 at 07:06 AM. |
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#2 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
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This is interesting. I always considered Saruman a poser at this point and that his ring was nothing more than adornment.
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#3 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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I had been thinking about it that way too, for some time, in the beginning. But then again, it is true that Saruman spent literally hundreds of years by studying the Ring-lore and trying to recover as much as he could about the craft of the smiths of Eregion, so it is actually pretty well-supported to assume that he would have been able to try to create some small Ring of his own.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#4 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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If we look at the reason behind making a Ring of Power in the first place, I'd now be inclined to think Saruman's (assuming he did fashion it) just an ornament.
Sauron made the One and put his power into in order to control the wearers of the other Rings. In doing so, he also took the risk that if the One were ever destroyed, that part of his power would likewise be dissipated forever. What motive would Saruman have had in trying do the same thing? He could not have exercised control in any special way. A ring created by him should not have led to any increase in his power, or in any of his native abilities. He was already an "inferior" of Sauron's in will and spiritual power, which is why he knew in order to challenge Sauron he must gain Sauron's Ring. Really, making his own ring wouldn't seem to lead to any specific benefit for Saruman.
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#5 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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I can think of no reason to believe his ring would have been bound up with the fate of the One, as were those forged in Eregion. Sauron's influence over him seems to have been restricted to the Palantir of Orthanc. Also he was unlike the Nine, who once were 'mortal men doomed to die'.
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#6 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
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I'm not sure, when Gandalf or Saurman use power, if one can say for certain how much is the wizard, how much the staff, and how much the ring. Some writers are highly specific in the mechanics of their magic. Tolkien, not so much.
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#7 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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![]() Saruman had been researching Ring-lore, he had been interested in making his own Rings, we know about that. If he could create a ring which would make Saruman with a Ring equal to 1,001 Saruman, I think he would still be happy about achieving that. But who says Saruman's ring had to work the same way as the One Ring? The One was very special. But the Elves, Dwarves etc. had Rings with many different and special abilities. For example Thrór's ring "bred gold" (whatever that means, I am imagining bringing some sort of "merchant's luck"), Galadriel's likely helped to preserve Lórien, Elrond's helped him command the river. So why should not Saruman have created something like that? So I must certainly disagree about that it would "lead to no specific benefit" for him. Besides, he was a Ring-nerd. Definitely. But there is some vague way in which we could say, for example, "the staff increased his power". In the same sense, we can't even state exactly how did the One Ring influence Sauron's power, but we know that he was much more powerful with it than without it, and we know e.g. that the owner of the Ring had the power over the other Rings.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#8 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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With a ring on his finger And bells on his toes Saruman has many coloured makeup wherever he goes. ![]()
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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#9 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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Saruman's ring was not on the level of one of the Great Rings and maybe not even the Lesser ones, but it must have had some power. Saruman boast how he is Saurman the 'ring maker'. Tolkien in one of his letters expresses how if his story was allegorical then Saruman would have been able to find the missing links in Mordor and create his own One Ring. So we can see he had enough lore to create a ring, but was missing some key bits of information to really make a Great Ring.
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#10 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Saruman's Ring was no mere ornament.
He studied and worked long and hard to craft it, and knowing just what we do of Saruman's personality and pride, do you think he would boast to Gandalf of having crafted a useless ornament? My opinion is that all of the Rings of power (which shall be capitalised from now on in this post) in some way worked on the hroa/fea and worked with sanwe. Anyone who doesn't know what these are - hroa/fea roughly corresponds to body/soul and sanwe is thought transference. Rather a lot about this can be found in a quite obscure essay by Tolkien that was published by an organisation who do work on his created languages. The Rings work on Men/mortals to break down the barrier of the hroa in particular - and in some way, the One may also have this effect on Sauron himself, who has been incarnated for far too long and is hence in a very vulnerable hroa. Saruman will obviously have faced this problem in crafting his own Ring. Perhaps he managed to get over this in some way...and I have an idea how. Another of my thoughts is that Light is held as divine in Arda, and we know that Saruman tried to 'break' the Light to see what it was made from. Thus, he becomes Saruman of Many Colours. It is quite possible that he sought this third way of Light breaking (as opposed to following a Light or Dark path) as some means of avoiding the risk Sauron took. Of course, if he did, then it ultimately failed as he was unbodied at Hobbiton. It's also entirely possible for another One Ring to be made. A different one, yes, but very much possible, if one skilled enough had the know-how. I'll come back to this because I want to watch some Plantagenets on telly, but meanwhile here's some of my old ramblings touching on this, which have some good quotes (I've nto just posted them because I can't be bothered ![]() Rings of Power and Osanwe-kenta The Mystery of Light
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#11 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: On the road, again...
Posts: 73
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Concerning Saruman's Ring. (and I should state, that I'm no expert on the matter, unlike Legate, whom I know to be a fan of this particular aspect of Ring-lore)
When I take into account Norse Mythology, which I hope we can all accept as major inspiration in Tolkien's work. I can not to point few points. I do have no proofs on my claims, but I think they should be quite easy to find or follow. It all is only about interpretation and what isn't nowadays? First: We all (hope this doesn't insult anyone), and I consider this heritage of 'western-society', some wedding rituals (it's meaning half forgotten through the ages) and myths, that we all know by hearth (although deeper layers aren't known to anyone, save lucky, or not, few) think of ring as "essence condensed into a little precious". I'd argue, that in the aforementioned Mythology (especially Norse, but lets look at Prometheus and a Ring...) was The Ring exactly opposite. It represented "Will imposed onto the whole world". Think of Andvari's ring. Little jewel was only the means of the most powerful curse ever known by the gods or men. Malevolence condensed into single, "simple" piece of metal. And was the metal so important in presisely this shape? The desire of Andvari, his vengeance and hatered were demonstrated just by this simple oranment. Was 'The One Ring' any different? Wasn't it curse possesing Arda made solid? Fate of the world forged? One that can not be broken, save by some "nearly" impossible tasks? (Shall we look at LotR as 'mostly' symbolic quest? I stand by this.) But the Ring is much more symbolical. Making the Ring is not some 'hobby'. How many managed in the whole history of Arda? Three? Celebrimbor, Sauron and Saruman? (Correct me here if, I'm not really sure) Ring-lore is not a thing to be simply learned. Would it so, why wouldn't 'all the mighty' (say Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan) forge their own rings? Those were only elves, but still a representative sample, right? Should I add Thranduil? Durin? Guess not. Logic, is what I'm counting on here, wrong perhaps, especially when I argue about the whole symbolicity of T's works. Let us now, for the sake of argument, consider It can not be learned, but three (or more) manged still to do so. Was it question of personal power? Yes, if we consider Sauron. (He was, by far, I think so, one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth) Possibly, if we consider Celebrimbor. (Well, really, Survived the whole First Age (most of it?), took part in all the events of War of Wrath and after. He could have been easily better/stronger (so imprecise words ![]() ![]() Argue now. We can debate this forever. But bear with me just a second longer. I argue, that capability of forging a ring is closely connected to the desire to "impose oneselve's will upon the World"! It is a character and ambitions manifested, so that they can affect all of creation. Think of Narya. I believe, that on more than one account it was related to Hope! Unless I'm gravely mistaken Hope is held in very high (that is possibly a understatement) regard by christians. And our author was such. This doesn't relly fit in here... What I wanted to say, is that 'The Ring of Fire' was emotion made solid. Or desire made solid? If so, couldn't other be made in such manner? Therefore: Quote:
Therefore I conclude, that the passage cited is indeed 'Saruman's will'. His ability to confuse, befuddle mind of human beings projected. And to invoke doubt in their / our hearts, which they / we luckily withstood and conquered. Hope this post helps some. Apologies for it's lenght. Tired now. Good night. Corrections to follow tomorrow.
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Let us sit upon the ground, and tell sad stories of the death of kings. - Shakespeare (Richard II) |
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#12 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
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I think, for example, of the force a man (or woman) can exert to move a bolder by hand. And then the difference if that same force is directed through a lever; or, even better, through the building of an internal-combustion engine and crane; or, still more, through the production of NitroGlycerin or TNT; or, even more, if the person's abilities are placed into generating an atomic explosion.
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#13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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The greatest power of the One Ring was, evidently, its capacity for enabling the exertion of one's own will over the wills of others, to command and be obeyed. Apparently this was not especially necessary for beings of weak will and evil nature, such as Orcs and Trolls, but was invaluable for the domination of other beings. See for instance Sauron in Nśmenor: "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Nśmenóreans." (Letter 211) The Ring is also described in said Letter as the object "upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depends." Saruman's Voice seemingly possessed an equivalent effect without the need of Rings, but evidently the One would have provided a serious enhancement to his strength in that regard. Certainly Saruman was seeking the One with great fervour, which would suggest to me that he desired its powers specifically, as well as, apparently, denying its access and use to Sauron who would seemingly have been able to eliminate this budding rival for power just as he could have dealt with the rest of his enemies. Gandalf claims that "Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring." (LR p.486) I would agree with this sentiment; Saruman's Ring perhaps had some power like a Lesser Ring, but as Professor Tolkien's remarks from the Foreword which I quoted earlier would suggest he had not managed to craft a Great Ring which would truly have been a formidable tool and weapon. When Saruman openly displayed his Ring to Gandalf and described himself as "Saruman Ring-maker" he was already corrupt, and we have seen his capacity in this way as a liar and deceiver. I would perceive this, then, as largely an act of posturing on his part, perhaps to intimidate Gandalf or maybe even in an effort to convince himself that he was more powerful, and more of an equal to Sauron, than he really was. It's worth noting that shortly after describing himself as a Ring-maker and showing off his own Ring he reveals his desire for the One Ring: "Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the power would pass to us." (LR p.253) This would suggest to me that his own efforts were largely unsuccessful, and that perhaps he was attempting to exaggerate his mastery of Ring-lore. |
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#14 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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I have often found that dreams and meditation present me with knowledge I didn't consciously realise I've picked up, but then I've always felt that I'm slower than most people; like Butterbur, slow of thought but able to see through a wall given time. Given the way some people use their mental agility I've often felt I'm in the presence of a Saruman, able to use words with malicious intent, or a Tom Bombadil, who can merrily run circles around me. I think Tom may have been unaffected by The Ring because his brain was permanently set on full awarness. Another place where I find I have abilities which surprise me (if that makes sense) is in playing musical instruments. Again I'm slow at reading the music but when I stop seeing the dots and 'hear' the tune it all falls into place and my fingers somehow know what to do (and elbows; I play the uilleann pipes). There's something about the process that seems magical, especially when playing with other musicians to create harmonies and counter melodies (does that make me Melkor?). With Saruman it's as though he knows how to play people with his Voice.
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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#15 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Both Elves and Men have an innate ability to communicate with the mind. In Elves, according to the Osanwe-Kenta, this is easier owing to the nature of hroa/fea, in Men, it is more difficult. However, sanwe is less about sending your thoughts to others, more about being open to the thoughts of others. The difference in how well sanwe works in Elves and Men is down to the hroa - in Men it is much more protective. Tolkien may have put this information into an obscure essay, but it creeps in throughout the published texts. We know that the Elves 'perceive' what Sauron has done when he puts on the One and conceal their own Rings (I take this as the three bearers closing their minds to him, and of course closing the greater perception that might be available due to the Rings they wear). We see it during dream sequences. And of course we see it in how those who wear the One feel observed. There are other intriguing references to hroa/fea such as when Eowyn is threatened by the Witch-king with: "flesh shall be devoured, and your shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye". Which hint at how the Nine rings work on Men to create Ringwraiths. I think the Rings of Power work in one way to facilitate greater opening of the mind in sanwe (the Three especially), in some cases perhaps even to facilitate control (the Nine, in particular), and they work in another way to break the link between hroa/fea, especially in the case of Men. The One completely and instantly breaks the link between hroa/fea of course in Men/Hobbits, we don't know how it would work with an Elf though (would it destroy or empower him or her?). Wearing it means that Men no longer have the protection that the hroa gives them. It's also possible that one failing it has is that it cannot destroy the hroa, only wither it (a matter of opinion maybe). So, Saruman may have known very well that a Ring of Power had benefits linked to sanwe. He may also have known that it would work on the link between hroa/fea. The only character we know who was a Maiar apart from Sauron to wear one of these Rings was Gandalf, and we can see that he has a tremendous power - no doubt part of what drove Saruman was to gain some of this, presuming he knew about it. Saruman makes a Ring that's different and new, crafted based on his own learning. He also forges a new way based on broken Light - another recurring theme throughout Tolkien's work is Light and how various characters seek to possess, devour and destroy it. Saruman seeks to see what it is made from and make something new. I don't have any doubts that if it was crafted correctly then he could have quickly wielded great power - Saruman already had an incredibly powerful command over language and used his voice to persuade to devastating effect and with a Ring that enhanced this... Whether he was ever going to succeed is an interesting point because it's hard to know just how much he was influenced by Sauron, and how independent he was. One thing I really wish Tolkien had done at the end of Lord of the Rings was have someone pick up Saruman's Ring and pocket it - like the moment in Doctor Who when we see a hand creep in and take The Master's ring from his pyre... ![]()
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#16 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
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#17 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Well, who knows how many there were in reality, I'd guess much more (a couple of other balrog-like things, and there were also many of the weird creatures that are by some considered Maiar or somehow close to Maiar, like Goldberry, Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul and of course the ever-present Tom Bombadil. What I think about those is another topic, but I think it's correct to assume the number of Maiar in Middle-Earth did not end at 7).
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#18 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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"...were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced... Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality."
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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#19 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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![]() But I guess all this is a bit outside the scope of this thread...
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#20 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Ultimately yes, his actions only echo what Morgoth and Sauron did before him, as in Arda, it is not acceptable to challenge or claim ownership of Light. But he still tries, and he tries something a little different. This is why I have nicknamed it Saruman's 'third way' - he does not see it as good or evil, it is another path to him. But it is also a slightly different approach to those taken by both Morgoth and Sauron. I like the thought that just as Light and light refract and splinter, so the attempts by those on the side of evil in Arda also refract - their works shatter, and with each new attempt to gain control, their efforts grow ever weaker.
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#21 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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To me this deconstruction of the light is representative of villainous folly in general in Arda: the idea that finite, incarnate beings exerting their limited power over individual constituents of something to which they were themselves internal and a part were somehow capable of turning the ultimate control away from the external, infinite authority - it's completely delusional. They were part of the system; the system can't change itself. Only the person on the outside, Eru, has that power. Breaking things down gives the illusion, however, that they do have that power; the Shadow confounded itself just as readily as its enemies. This is how I read the breaking of the White light. That being said, thank you for your insights, this has been an extremely illuminating (pun intended or not, your choice) discussion! |
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