I Found the Entwives!

[Aaron]

Got reminded of how much I love this thread and decided to repost here.
Every so often, I'll visit this thing, go over the OP and mull over what Teleporno said, years later and it's probably obvious the guy was a hoaxer, but what can I say? He inspired me! Perhaps he believed in what he said.

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Teleporno stated the importance of the womens liberation movement, what if the fate of the Entiwives reflects the other women, the ones who stayed within the old patriarchal system - waiting for things to change rather than changing them themselves?

What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aaron

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Becoming "treeish" seems to be a process requiring a long period of time, so I don't see that happening on a large scale without at least some Ents being aware. I would also question the likelihood of the process happening to every one of the Entwives, since it seems to affect Ents fairly randomly, and not necessarily as an intentional act.

[Ardent]

This is from the song of the Entwives:

When spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here and will not come, because my land is fair.

Fragrance fills the air in Ithilien, but the general type of trees are not orchard species, and the trees at the crossroads are far too large to fit the type described by Treebeard:

"But the entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forest; and they saw the sloe in the thicket... and the green herbs in the waterlands... and bear leaf and fruit..."

I do not know of any reason to suppose the Entwives were even 'treeish'. Though they had "the eyes of our people" they also had hair parched by the sun. This is why I'm not inclined to think the sighting of a tree that walked in The Shire was an Entwife. Though we're told they would like the Shire this sounds more like a searching Ent.
Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

That's a very interesting point of view, never thought of it that way. It's certainly innovative and I like it, even though I don't find it likely But it's certainly a nice idea. I guess why I never thought of that was, Goldberry's personality does not seem very much like the way the Entwives are described. And while it is true Treebeard does not seem to recollect very well whether the Entwives looked a lot like the Ents or not, still, it is probably rather safe to assume, or expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...

Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

... expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...

It was the Ents who loved the great trees, the Entwives loved lesser trees and watermeadows and herbs etc. If shepherd becomes like sheep then I'd expect Entwives to become more like the plants they love, in Goldberry's case waterlillies or Irises perhaps. But then if, as treebeard says, "the elves started it [talking to the trees to waken them]" then why should Ent not become more Elvish?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

... Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?

Because:
"When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here..."

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were? Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land:

"...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

It was the Ents who loved the great trees, the Entwives loved lesser trees and watermeadows and herbs etc. If shepherd becomes like sheep then I'd expect Entwives to become more like the plants they love, in Goldberry's case waterlillies or Irises perhaps. But then if, as treebeard says, "the elves started it [talking to the trees to waken them]" then why should Ent not become more Elvish?

I think, based on the above, that Entwives would start looking more like herbs and plants rather than trees, but Ent looking more Elvish is a different step. That would require the Entwife in question turning away both from the Ent lifestyle (among trees) and the mainstream Entwife lifestyle (working in their gardens) to spending a lot of time with the Elves.

But I don't have anything against it. There were Elves passing around, such as Gildor's group. The only thing is that it would make Goldberry a really "wild teenager", or how to call it, a "total rebel" from both the Ent and Entwife lifestyle: roaming so incredibly far and spending time with Elves or whomever for a long time. And in the end, living in some pool where Tom found her (even if we discount the poem of Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where it is basically explicitely stated that she was the daughter of the River-woman, of course it depends on everyone how much "canonical" s/he deems it and whether we don't say that it's only what the folklore of Hobbits made out of the little they knew about Tom and Goldberry; there is still however Tom's explicit confession to Frodo and co. how he had found Goldberry in the river).

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were?

It was certainly not far from their original gardens, which were in the Brown Lands, as Treebeard said. But it does not really make much sense. If the Entwives really left their gardens (out of fear from the rising power of Mordor, perhaps, and so on), it would not really help or make sense to move only a couple of dozens of miles to the north. Besides, concerning the later ages, we must consider Radagast a bit of a rarity. Once the Mirkwood started darkening, nobody would really be happy about living too close to its south end - Eorl the Young, when riding south to help Gondor, was really freaked out from the idea of merely passing in the sight of the wood on the east bank. Most of all, I am not sure whether the area around Rhosgobel would be the best for the Entwives. If they loved gardens, and one presumes lots of open space (for example equal to the size of Fangorn) needed for that, the Anduin Vales are nice, true, but there would certainly be more suitable areas more to the East - just like Treebeard presumed that the Entwives might have gone that way (they originally left Fangorn exactly for that - going to the originally lush wide plains north of future Dagorlad).

Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land:

"...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.

Nothing against that description, but of course you must acknowledge that it is merely a description of cultivated gardens surrounding one house (later, in the times of a strong Beorning "nation" by the time of LotR, something bigger, of course). I mean, there were thousands and thousands of places like that in Middle-Earth, starting with the Shire (which however was all like that and was big, and that was one of the reasons Treebeard assumed the Entwives would have liked it), but you could speak in the same way about the meadows of Lebennin or whatever else - I am sure Ioreth's sisters had wonderful gardens somewhere in Imloth Melui or whatnot. I think if Entwives had lived near the Beornings, somebody would have noticed (the Beornings or Woodmen, namely).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ardent

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were?

For a long time I thought it curious that Radagast is not mentioned by Treebeard given that he was a Maia of Yavanna, but Yavanna was the Vala of animals as well as plants. I've eventually gained the impression that the Maiar "people" of the various Valar did not necessarily partake of the whole domain of their particular Vala: hence Aiwendil-Radagast was seemingly only interested in the animal side of the Yavanna-aspect of Arda, and not the plant. In Morgoth's Ring (where would I be without "Myths Transformed"?) the Professor notes that Sauron saw Gandalf as "only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals." (p.397) This would further suggest to me that Radagast's primary interest was in animals, despite his Vala being also concerned with plants.
After all, Treebeard describes Gandalf as "the only wizard that really cares about trees." (LR p.455) Then again Treebeard does add that "I do not know the history of wizards" and in Letter 153 Professor Tolkien remarks of Treebeard that "there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came." (Letters p.190)
That being said, as was quoted some years ago in this thread Professor Tolkien does offer some explanation for the Entwives' disappearance in Letter 144: "I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land", although he does leave room for surivors: "some, of course, may have fled east or even have become enslaved." So there is the possibility for a remnant to have ended up, seemingly, in Nurn or in Rhûn - a potential but I daresay unintentional association with, say, Dorwinion could perhaps be interpolated from this "fled east" suggestion.
Of course he does make a point of saying in Letter 247 of the Ents that "the males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna." So perhaps there is room for an Entwife-Radagast connection even if Radagast was primarily interested in animals. That being said I personally am rather resistant to much embellishment of Radagast's role: for my own part I tend to feel that Professor Tolkien wrote very little about him for a reason: because he considered him to have done very little, and to be rather insignificant for all his origin. I don't wish to digress but to me Radagast, although doubtless a "worthy wizard" in his own way, is very much representative of the fallibility of the Valar and their plans, even if in a very different way to Saruman.
Like Professor Tolkien I think it's nice to hope that the Entwives survived in some way, and I find the Ent/Entwife song to be very moving, but I think the Professor was wise to leave the matter ambiguous. That mystery, the sense of loss and the tiny hope of reunion and reconciliation which is so doggedly clung to is, in my view, more powerful and more valuable than him providing us with a hard and fast answer about what happened.

[FerniesApple]

I have a theory that Entwives live happily in Lothlorien tending the Mallorn trees.