Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)

[burrahobbit]

This.

Besides that, I think it is important to point out that you failed to mention Luthien.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Besides that, I think it is important to point out that you failed to mention Luthien.

But we do have Lush's immortal thread, Ooh la la, Lúthien....

One would assume that Tom and Goldberry--not that I'm calling them Maiar--had a fulfilling marriage. Yet we don't see any little Toms or Berrys.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But we do have Lush's immortal thread, Ooh la la, Lúthien....

One would assume that Tom and Goldberry--not that I'm calling them Maiar--had a fulfilling marriage. Yet we don't see any little Toms or Berrys.

Shall we assume that contraception existed in Middle-earth, or that Goldberry was barren?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Shall we assume that contraception existed in Middle-earth, or that Goldberry was barren?

Well, given that she was known for being deeply in touch with nature, doing rain dances and such, presumably she was proficient at the rhythm method.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, given that she was known for being deeply in touch with nature, doing rain dances and such, presumably she was proficient at the rhythm method.

Perhaps she had an arbortion.

[burrahobbit]

We've got one solid example of an Ainu reproducing with an incarnate being, which shows us that yes, the Ainur do have sex. As my esteemed colleague obloquy has previously pointed out, engaging in such activity has certain deleterious consequences that a clear thinking Ainu would be eager to avoid. In general I think it is safe to say that the Valar and Maiar would avoid such procreative (subcreative?) tendancies, while other sorts of Ainur (dark lords, balrogs) might indulge.

[Eönwë]

Hm, I seem to remember having a similar discussion recently. I think, when incarnate in the form of a reproducing creature, sex makes sense, as in the case of Melian. Of course, the issue then is of the nature of the fëa of the child. It depends how new fëar are created (which would make an interesting discussion in its own right), and whether they come from Eru or are a product of their parents in some way as well.

Then we get to the issue of the Istari. I never thought of them as sexual, but now, after thinking about how they had to actually live in the bodies of Men, I would assume that they were also fully functional in that department. And then one wonders whether they ever did uncloak in the days of their physical youth. Or at least had the desire to, now that they were human and bound to the physical. Or would that be diverting from their mission?

As for other incarnates, I think it's more vague. What about about Balrogs? Would they have sexual organs? And if so, why? Or would Morgoth have denied them those to stop them getting 'distracted'? And as G55 said, it would be interesting to know whether incarnate Ainur were actually biologically sound, or whether it was just a façade. Or is that what makes the difference between 'light' and 'proper' incarnation?

And then there are the Ainur in their incorporeal state. I'd imagine that rather than going the physical route, their sex would be something like that of the angels in Paradise Lost, when Raphael tells Adam:

Originally Posted by Paradise Lost, Book VIII, lines 620-629

Let it suffice thee that thou know'st
Us happie, and without Love no happiness.
Whatever pure thou in the body enjoy'st
(And pure thou wert created) we enjoy
In eminence, and obstacle find none
Of membrane, joynt, or limb, exclusive barrs:
Easier then Air with Air, if Spirits embrace,
Total they mix, Union of Pure with Pure
Desiring; nor restrain'd conveyance need
As Flesh to mix with Flesh, or Soul with Soul.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One would assume that Tom and Goldberry--not that I'm calling them Maiar--had a fulfilling marriage. Yet we don't see any little Toms or Berrys.

You might never know how many River-granddaughters are wandering about...

Seriously, though, I would like to bring up this nice little bit from The Sil:

But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. (Ainulindale)

So, while that says nothing of sex, the Valar clearly have genders (if you care to differentiate between the two, I think sex refers more towards your reproductive organs and gender more towards your disposition on the matter). If, however, I stick to those definitions, they beg a question: do the Valar necessarily have sexual organs? They are able to take on different shapes, and are able to move about without any shape at all. Now how do you biologically define that?! Melian bore a child, and IIRC in the earlier versions Manwe and Varda had a son Fionwe, so they're capable of having children if they wish to. I guess it depends on what form they take. But I would say that the connection between the Valar spouses is mostly mental.

I personally believe that taking a shape similar to a human does not necessarily give you human anatomy (f.ex., the Valar don't necessarily have two kidneys and a liver, and thus also don't necessarily have reproductiove organs). I guess that if they choose to be similar to the Children in that way, they may become so, like Melian did, but I prefer to think that they do not even bother themselves with such thoughts.

I wonder now if it's possible to have a hermaphrodite or androgynous ainu. (Seems from Agan's thread about Sauron's hair colour that the question of homosexuality is already decided on by Tumblr. )

(As a side note, you should have seen my facial expressions as I was typing all this! A family member who came into the room asked me if I'm ok. )