Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[Aganzir]

One thing we need to remember about history-writing in Middle-earth is that it's mostly from the Elves' point of view and may therefore be biased in some cases. Their definition of evil may not always correspond with that of the Dwarves'. I think it's fair to use the Petty Dwarves as an example here - they did something awful enough to be cast out, but they were never that many. I interpret this as meaning that the Dwarves were okay with forgiving most crimes.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

But I wonder about this. Why were there no grudges remembered from the time of the Last Alliance during the War of the Dwarves and Orcs? This was the question that basically launched my questioning in this area.

I believe some Dwarves who fought for Sauron could also have seen themselves as primarily siding against the Elves. They might have put their little quarrels with the Orcs aside for that because the Thingol incident was much more personal.

I've always thought the passage about the Dwarves fighting each other is more about occasional skirmishes than anything serious and long-running. After all, they generally stick together. There are two quotes which I believe haven't been brought up yet:

Originally Posted by Durin's Folk, Appendix A

Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the other Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath.

Originally Posted by The Making of Appendix A, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.

As for the latter, Durin's Race can be read as either the House of Durin or all Dwarves, right? Anyway, Thrór's murder was big enough an offense against the entire race to set aside grudges between Houses, but when it was done, the Dwarves of the other Houses were quick to leave for their homes after the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, the Rings were designed to lead everybody to an evil end. In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.

They didn't work with the Elves because Sauron didn't forge them, so we can probably leave them out here.
I don't think Aulë explained Sauron anything about the Dwarves in Valinor, and besides it's questionable whether Sauron was still hanging out there by the time Aulë created the Dwarves or if he had already moved his things to Utumno. But he must have been familiar with them instinctively - being one of Aulë's Maiar, he had tuned his music to his and must have been aware of his way of thinking and creating; while none of the Ainur fully understood the theme with the Children of Ilúvatar.
I am therefore quite sure it was Dwarves' natural resistance to manipulation that thwarted Sauron rather than any particular knowledge, or lack of it, on his part, and Men succumbed so completely just because they are weak.

While we don’t know, it seems reasonable to surmise that this information would have been relayed eastwards, especially given the amount of time that passed.

How about them messenger ravens, or was that a privilege reserved exclusively to the House of Durin?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?

I doubt he would've joined the Fellowship if he had been the greedier sort of a Dwarf. He would've gone home after the Council and, like, digged for gold.

Anyway, think of Fíli and Kíli who started playing harps while most of the other Dwarves caressed and fingered the treasure after getting into the Mountain. Then think of Finrod Felagund who wasn't a haughty and arrogant fellow like most other Noldor. It's never that simple.

[Kuruharan]

I believe some Dwarves who fought for Sauron could also have seen themselves as primarily siding against the Elves. They might have put their little quarrels with the Orcs aside for that because the Thingol incident was much more personal.

While to some extent that is plausible, I don't know that I am in complete agreement with it because the eastern dwarves probably had very few to almost no dealings with elves. They certainly had no dealings with the more advanced elves. I am not sure they would have had enough dealings with elves to make having a grudge against them a primary motivating force.

They didn't work with the Elves because Sauron didn't forge them, so we can probably leave them out here.

That is a good point.

How about them messenger ravens, or was that a privilege reserved exclusively to the House of Durin?

Yes, those too. I still believe there would have been some kind of continuing continental commerce between the Houses.

[skip spence]

I still believe there would have been some kind of continuing continental commerce between the Houses.

Sure. More so, I don't see it unlikely that there would be commerce between Dwarves and some clans of Orcs too. Apart from other hints of this already mentioned I believe, the episode that led to the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs is quite telling. When Thrór was killed the name AZOG was written on his face in Dwarf-runes. That some Orcs would have knowledge of Dwarf-runes to me suggests that the contacts between the two Peoples weren't exclusively hostile. And even more telling is the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Sure. More so, I don't see it unlikely that there would be commerce between Dwarves and some clans of Orcs too. Apart from other hints of this already mentioned I believe, the episode that led to the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs is quite telling. When Thrór was killed the name AZOG was written on his face in Dwarf-runes. That some Orcs would have knowledge of Dwarf-runes to me suggests that the contacts between the two Peoples weren't exclusively hostile. And even more telling is the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

Those are excellent points!

I had never thought of this incident in that context before. That is most eye opening.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While to some extent that is plausible, I don't know that I am in complete agreement with it because the eastern dwarves probably had very few to almost no dealings with elves. They certainly had no dealings with the more advanced elves. I am not sure they would have had enough dealings with elves to make having a grudge against them a primary motivating force.

We know (as quoted in this thread) that they did have contact with the Avari though.

I also wanted to mention "countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem." (LR p.803)

I've always like the idea of an Easterling-Dwarf cultural connection. There's even "the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul" (The Peoples of Middle-earth p.317), which is an interesting notion.

It seems that there is an Easterling-Dwarf connection. And we know that there is a substantial Easterling-Orc connection. Is might be possible, then, for there to have been in Rhûn a variety of races in contact with one another, perhaps including the Avari as well. Not to say that this was likely a pleasant or altogether peaceful situation but at least one which may have been somewhat functional.

Given their great resistance to Evil, and the willingness on the part of all seven houses to contribute to the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, I'm not totally convinced by the notion that the Eastern Dwarves turned to Evil entirely, but may certainly have been under the Shadow to a greater extent than their Western kin (explaining how at least some of them apparently allied and traded with Orcs, came to serve Sauron etc). As I discussed elsewhere, to my mind the Dwarves were not of the same spiritual calibre as the Eruhíni which might explain how they neither attained the same levels of heroism nor, perhaps, the same Fallen depths.

I could discuss Dwarf-lore all day...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If we assume, as I think we must, that the coinage of Middle-earth was like that of the Primary World up to the 20th century, coinage had intrinsic value, based on its composition: chiefly gold and silver, plus 'token' currency in copper, bronze, brass and sometimes iron. Note that Butterbur pays for Bill the Pony with "silver pennies," the standard circulating coin of the English middle ages (and 20 of them was considered a fair expense even for a prosperous innkeeper).

And much like Europe in the middle ages, coins we can assume spread far and wide beyond the land where they were minted, and quickly became a promiscuous mixture of origins. This didn't matter, since gold and silver were valued by weight anyway. So one didn't have to be "familiar with the currency" at all to tell that a 25-gram gold coin was of very substantial worth, or that a bag of small copper and brass pieces was of "little worth." Even today, it's apparent to most at a glance that a handful of faux-copper coins roughly the size of a US or European cent, Canadian penny or old German pfennig amounts to little, wherever they came from.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If we assume, as I think we must, that the coinage of Middle-earth was like that of the Primary World up to the 20th century, coinage had intrinsic value, based on its composition: chiefly gold and silver, plus 'token' currency in copper, bronze, brass and sometimes iron. Note that Butterbur pays for Bill the Pony with "silver pennies," the standard circulating coin of the English middle ages (and 20 of them was considered a fair expense even for a prosperous innkeeper).

And much like Europe in the middle ages, coins we can assume spread far and wide beyond the land where they were minted, and quickly became a promiscuous mixture of origins. This didn't matter, since gold and silver were valued by weight anyway. So one didn't have to be "familiar with the currency" at all to tell that a 25-gram gold coin was of very substantial worth, or that a bag of small copper and brass pieces was of "little worth." Even today, it's apparent to most at a glance that a handful of faux-copper coins roughly the size of a US or European cent, Canadian penny or old German pfennig amounts to little, wherever they came from.

I see your point. I remember (back in the days when I collected "modern" coins my suprise when I first saw a British quarter farthing (note that is a quarter of a farthing i.e. 1/16th of a penny) and realized that, low as a farthing was value in turn of the century Britain, there were places where it was still too much money for day to day commerce and even smaller coins were needed (from what I understand, sub farthings (1/4, 1/3 and 1/2) were mostly for use in some of the colonies (malta in particualr, though the were legal tender in Britain itself).
Without any real evidence, I've always sort of assumed that Gondorian money was the currency of choice for inernational (inter tribal?) exchange. As the biggest "power" in ME (exculding Mordor itself, see later) it would probably be the weight and fineness(purity of metal) standards of Gondor/Arnor that would be the "standard" for trade (much as most international trade in Bibilcal times was based on the Tyrian shekel ) Also since (in a lot of ways) Gondor was supposed to be like Rome, I've always sort of imagined they issued roman style coins, as opposed to medival style (in general the medival style of minting, from a plate of metal as opped to a "dump" (slug) resulted in coins that were bigger than the roman kinds, but a lot thinner. The roman style was preferred in a lot of places as the thickness made it harder to clip coins (shave a bit of metal off the sides so as to make a profit) Minas Tirith probably had the master mint, with smaller satellite mints in places like Dol Amroth (there was probably also one in Minas Ithil/Morgul, under the WK's authority that supplied coin to those in Mordor who needed paying (or if they never changed the dies, to flood the free people with debased coinage to weaken thier confidence.)

[Kuruharan]

We know (as quoted in this thread) that they did have contact with the Avari though.

This is true, but I'm not sure that contact would have been that substantial. I still hold to my statement that a grudge against the elves wouldn't have been a primary motivating factor in the eastern dwarves siding with Sauron.

It seems that there is an Easterling-Dwarf connection. And we know that there is a substantial Easterling-Orc connection. Is might be possible, then, for there to have been in Rhûn a variety of races in contact with one another, perhaps including the Avari as well. Not to say that this was likely a pleasant or altogether peaceful situation but at least one which may have been somewhat functional.

I think this is spot on, which is one reason why its a bit of a shame we know so little about Rhun. Perhaps (following my theory, of course ) the reason why some groups of Easterlings had such strong cultural dwarven overtones is because they were partners (or possibly more valued underlings) with one or the other of the eastern houses as opposed to Androg's people who seemed to have been on the exploited or oppressed side of the spectrum.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If we assume, as I think we must, that the coinage of Middle-earth was like that of the Primary World up to the 20th century, coinage had intrinsic value, based on its composition: chiefly gold and silver, plus 'token' currency in copper, bronze, brass and sometimes iron.

A very good point, however I think skip spence's point regarding the use of dwarf runes still bears some weight. Yes, the orcs were living in Moria where they were surrounded by dwarf runes, but that doesn't imply they were able to read them by themselves any more than it would imply that if I was living in a ruined ancient Egyptian temple that I would be able to read hieroglyphics. There had to be some kind of familiarity there in order for Azog to be literate in dwarf letters.

Without any real evidence, I've always sort of assumed that Gondorian money was the currency of choice for inernational (inter tribal?) exchange. As the biggest "power" in ME (exculding Mordor itself, see later) it would probably be the weight and fineness(purity of metal) standards of Gondor/Arnor that would be the "standard" for trade (much as most international trade in Bibilcal times was based on the Tyrian shekel )

For the area around Gondor (including Rohan) that was probably true. However, I'm not sure that would hold true in northern Middle earth especially after Gondor started to decline. For all its pride and splendor, Gondor was always kind of insular and never really struck me as much of a nation of merchants.

there was probably also one in Minas Ithil/Morgul, under the WK's authority that supplied coin to those in Mordor who needed paying (or if they never changed the dies, to flood the free people with debased coinage to weaken thier confidence.)

*ponders the implications of economic warfare in Middle earth*

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

Actually there is a sort of third option for the dwarves and the Rohirrim (and any other groups with vaugely germanic/viking habits. In a lot of the Viking world, coins were of short supply and laws about minting your own, often harsh. So what was often used were "money bracelets" these were long spiralled armlets of gold sliver or copper (usually in the shape of a coiled snake) of standard thickness with notches in them of set distance apart. To make a payment, you would count off x notches worth and cut them off. whent he bits got too small, they would be gathered, melted down and made into a new bracelet. It's sort of similar to the "money chains" you see in Colonial Spanish production (those hyper heavly chains of gold links that you see so much of whenever they dredge up the contents of a treasure ship. they were waht you made when you didn't have the autorization to mint coins. I do think there were probably Dwaven coins (if nothing else, there would have to be gold in a form flexible enough for Smaug and other dragons to make a cfortable bed in. But there would be other options.
And the Movie cerinly assumed the Hobbits minted coins, you can buy "shire pennies" (officlaly sactioned) on the collectable market (both mint and "hobbit circulated")