Zaentz countersues the Estate

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

This is after all Saul Zaentz we're talking about- underhanded and sleazy even by Hollywood's non-standards.

Quite an understatement. On Zaentz's Wiki page, mention is made of him taking legal action against businesses in the UK that use the name "Hobbit" in any fashion. This is similar to the action taken against Shire Post Mint over the excellent LoTR/Hobbit/Silm. coins they produced several years back. Zaentz really is a bully, and I wish he would reunite with his master Morgoth, sooner rather than later...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elemmakil

Quite an understatement. On Zaentz's Wiki page, mention is made of him taking legal action against businesses in the UK that use the name "Hobbit" in any fashion. This is similar to the action taken against Shire Post Mint over the excellent LoTR/Hobbit/Silm. coins they produced several years back. Zaentz really is a bully, and I wish he would reunite with his master Morgoth, sooner rather than later...

I feel like a broken record, but that sort of thing is exactly what I feared when all the movie-hype began flaring up prior to PJ's films. I never wanted Tolkien's works to be subjected to such indignities; modern marketing treats all artistic works equally as tools for profit. I don't particularly blame Zaentz, since I am certain whatever corporation with the movie rights would act much the same. It really is a shame though to see beloved books treasured less for intrinsic literary merit than for commercial potential.

[Mithalwen]

It seems unbelievable that they think they have rights to things that didn't exist at the time of the contract..

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I feel like a broken record, but that sort of thing is exactly what I feared when all the movie-hype began flaring up prior to PJ's films. I never wanted Tolkien's works to be subjected to such indignities; modern marketing treats all artistic works equally as tools for profit. I don't particularly blame Zaentz, since I am certain whatever corporation with the movie rights would act much the same. It really is a shame though to see beloved books treasured less for intrinsic literary merit than for commercial potential.

Zaentz has owned the movie rights since c. 1976 - and certainly sued various people long before PJ's films were a twinkle in PJ's eye.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Zaentz has owned the movie rights since c. 1976 - and certainly sued various people long before PJ's films were a twinkle in PJ's eye.

Yes, if you recall years ago Zaentz sued Gary Gygax and Dungeons & Dragons over its use of the word "hobbit". D&D had to change the name of the game characters to "halflings".

It's also notable that Zaentz's music company managed to purloin all the publishing rights of Creedence Clearwater Revival. Zaentz sued John Fogerty (the leader of CCR and writer of all its hit songs) when Fogerty released a solo album. Zaentz in effect sued Fogerty for plagiarizing himself, which led Fogerty to write a song with the lyrics "Zanz can't dance, but he can steal your money."

Naturally, Zaentz sued Fogerty again for defamation of character.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And what's really pathetic is the fact that Zaentz has made many times as much money off the movies as Tolkien's family, without having to lift a finger.


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Zaentz in effect sued Fogerty for plagiarizing himself

It was worse than that: Zaentz sued Fogerty for sounding like himself, on the grounds that Zaentz owned the IP rights to CCR's distinctive sound.

[Zigûr]

In an update, the Estate tried to have the counter-claims dismissed, but this was denied, so both the suit and counter-suit are still going ahead:

http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/warn...olkien-estate/

Frankly I could never support the filmmakers in this situation. The Tolkien Estate is repeatedly accused of greedily resting on the spoils of the Professor's achievements but personally I believe they have every right to quibble in cases like this where it's not black and white as to where the rights lie.

I assume this is why there was never a video game released for "An Unexpected Journey"?

It may or may not be pretense but if the Estate is genuinely concerned about the legacy of Professor Tolkien's work I think their concern is understandable. We are always told that "the books are still there" but when marketing, merchandise and spin have obliterated the majority of discourse on the subject I can't complain if WB and Zaentz are taken to task. On Facebook the other day people who had Liked the "The Fellowship of the Ring" page (for the book, not the film) were requested for a favourite quote. Half must have been from the film. There may have been a time before the films when Tolkien enthusiasm had receded and our conversations might be more isolated, but surely that is preferable to having it drowned beneath a sea of fatuous nonsense.

Elrond told the Council "It would be better if the Three had never been." I believe the same of the films. It is hard to know what to do in hindsight. Professor Tolkien once wrote that "the spirit of wickedness in high places is now so powerful and so many-headed in its incarnations that there seems nothing more to do than personally to refuse to worship any of the hydras' heads..." (Letter 312)

It may seem pointless for me to come here and preach to the choir, as it were, and I realise that this is not really meaningful news on a front regarding lawsuits which don't really mean anything insofar as the texts themselves are concerned, but I wouldn't be here if Professor Tolkien's work wasn't so important to me, and the symptoms of its occlusion are correspondingly troubling. If these stories are at risk of becoming palimpsests in culture, rewritten in the public consciousness in a way where films and merchandising and lawsuits have largely obscured the true and valuable matter, then I feel like there must be some who take responsibility for keeping the flame alive.

Any remarks of this nature may similarly seem like an overreaction, and I don't lay the blame at the feet of individuals in Hollywood or elsewhere, because it's symptomatic of the wider (neoliberal?) disease which afflicts Western Culture. Nonetheless I feel the need to muster my courage and take Gandalf as an example (as Professor Tolkien referenced in the same letter): "it is not for us to choose the times into which we are born, but to do what we could to repair them". Professor Tolkien places these paraphrased remarks before discussing his frustration with the heads of the hydra, but perhaps in the spirit of optimism and determination this is rather the sentiment upon which to focus.

[Inziladun]

My view on the lawsuits is no doubt colored by my antagonism toward the films, but I back the Estate.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On Facebook the other day people who had Liked the "The Fellowship of the Ring" page (for the book, not the film) were requested for a favourite quote. Half must have been from the film. There may have been a time before the films when Tolkien enthusiasm had receded and our conversations might be more isolated, but surely that is preferable to having it drowned beneath a sea of fatuous nonsense.

You know, the prospect of more people getting to know the books through exposure to the movies was the one bright spot I saw in their making. I know there have been those who have come to know and love the books thanks to PJ and Co., but for one thing, it shouldn't have to be that way, and for another, I think those people are in the minority.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Elrond told the Council "It would be better if the Three had never been." I believe the same of the films. It is hard to know what to do in hindsight. Professor Tolkien once wrote that "the spirit of wickedness in high places is now so powerful and so many-headed in its incarnations that there seems nothing more to do than personally to refuse to worship any of the hydras' heads..." (Letter 312)

I said the same many years ago, and was taken to task for my "extremism". I simply didn't want to see Tolkien's work brought to the level of the common Hollywood blockbuster, with the ever-present merchandising, marketing, and nearly inevitable (as we've seen) court proceedings. I wish PJ had found another pet project to bring to "life".

[Nerwen]

It may or may not be pretense but if the Estate is genuinely concerned about the legacy of Professor Tolkien's work I think their concern is understandable. We are always told that "the books are still there" but when marketing, merchandise and spin have obliterated the majority of discourse on the subject I can't complain if WB and Zaentz are taken to task. On Facebook the other day people who had Liked the "The Fellowship of the Ring" page (for the book, not the film) were requested for a favourite quote. Half must have been from the film. There may have been a time before the films when Tolkien enthusiasm had receded and our conversations might be more isolated, but surely that is preferable to having it drowned beneath a sea of fatuous nonsense.

Elrond told the Council "It would be better if the Three had never been." I believe the same of the films.

If you mean the "Lord of the Rings" films only, I can't really agree, as with all their faults I think they're pretty decent films of their kind. Still- the main counter-argument to what you've said here is usually something along the lines of "hey, publicity, wider audience, yay" and I think there are some real problems with that- I mean, what couldn't you justify that way?