Elves visiting Numenor. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Belegorn Calenmir · 08-05-2013, 11:25 PM

It could also be that the Elves were mostly too involved with the War of Sauron and Elves to visit Numenor that much. Tar-Aldarion in fact sailed to Middle-earth to assist Gil-Galad in the struggle, though some Elves visited Numenor during that time.

They called Aldarion's wife Uinen, the Lady of the Sea, to which she was hugely offended, since she felt like the Sea was stealing her husband from her.

So Elves, or at least some, did visit Numenor, though as the years went on, these visits became less and less frequent, especially after Adunakhor became king.

Mornorngûr · 08-30-2013, 08:38 AM

Putting aside the Elves of Middle-earth for a moment...

I have always felt that the Elves who came to Númenor to visit from Avalonne, were rather selfish in a way. I mean surely they only increased the temptation of the Númenorians by coming there, knowing full well that the reverse could not take place!. It is like sitting in front of a diabetic or obese child, and eating 12 Donuts whilst smiling at him, and then licking your fingers and saying "Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm".

A ban should also have been laid on the Eldar in my opinion.

thoughts?

Mithalwen · 08-30-2013, 10:56 AM

Disagree. The early Numenoreans before being corrupted would have been aware that they could not become immortal by going to Valinor

Belegorn · 08-30-2013, 10:38 PM

I cannot say the Elves were selfish when they taught and brought so many gifts to the Númenóreans who became the best sailors in M-E.

"the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts" [RotK, p. 352]

They even tried to stay the shadow spreading among the people who longed for an Elvish fate rather than their own, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Ilúvatar... some grew willful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them... we fear that the shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. though you be the Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped the Shadows of old and fought valiantly against it." [Sil, p. 327]

They told the King and his people that they were just visitors in this world, with a fate apart from the Elves, but there were now Men who would hold onto life until they became inept rather than freely give up their lives like Aragorn and the early Kings did. They knew they were not immortal, Elros chose to be mortal, but his later descendants wished too to have the choice to become Elves and regretted Elros' decision.

Mornorngûr · 09-02-2013, 09:05 AM

True, But I did say 'rather selfish in a way'. I am not disputing the fact that indeed they did help to enrich Numenor and brought many things thither. However it would still seem to me that one rule for the elves, and another for the Dunedain, could only lead to jealousy or temptation.

Belegorn · 09-02-2013, 03:59 PM

Different rules and different people. No matter how close the Dúnedain resembled the Elves ["in all things more like to the First-born than any other of the kindreds of Men", Sil, p. 321], they were not Elves and had different fates. However, "A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was NEARER to Valinor." [pp. 320-321] Though mortal they were given a place closer to the immortals than any people. It does seem that for many long life did breed this desire for immortality as they found much delight in the world. I'd say the Dúnedain were being the selfish ones. They were granted great gifts, and still were jealous of the fate of another people. As a result, in wanting more, they lost much, their long life and other gifts although for the purer Dúnedain in the 3rd Age these other gifts still seemed to be common among them. I cannot see those Elves thinking about themselves here, they still came secretly to the island to see the Faithful when the Kings were against them.

Mornorngûr · 09-03-2013, 09:18 AM

Indeed the Numenorians, like you say were far more selfish. They should of just been content with the great things they had already been granted, but alas! even with real men in this world, jealousy is something that runs through the veins of most, and men being men are never content and always desire more (well most men). I just think this could have been avoided altogether if the Eldar were not permitted to visit, regardless of selfishness.

08-30-2013, 08:38 AM	#2
Mornorngûr Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Angband Posts: 36	Putting aside the Elves of Middle-earth for a moment... I have always felt that the Elves who came to Númenor to visit from Avalonne, were rather selfish in a way. I mean surely they only increased the temptation of the Númenorians by coming there, knowing full well that the reverse could not take place!. It is like sitting in front of a diabetic or obese child, and eating 12 Donuts whilst smiling at him, and then licking your fingers and saying "Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm". A ban should also have been laid on the Eldar in my opinion. thoughts? __________________ Then Sauron laughed: 'Patience! Not long shall ye abide. But first a song I will sing to you, to ears intent.' Then his flaming eyes he on them bent, and darkness black fell round them all.

08-30-2013, 10:56 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Disagree. The early Numenoreans before being corrupted would have been aware that they could not become immortal by going to Valinor __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-30-2013, 10:38 PM	#4
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	I cannot say the Elves were selfish when they taught and brought so many gifts to the Númenóreans who became the best sailors in M-E. "the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts" [RotK, p. 352] They even tried to stay the shadow spreading among the people who longed for an Elvish fate rather than their own, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Ilúvatar... some grew willful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them... we fear that the shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. though you be the Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped the Shadows of old and fought valiantly against it." [Sil, p. 327] They told the King and his people that they were just visitors in this world, with a fate apart from the Elves, but there were now Men who would hold onto life until they became inept rather than freely give up their lives like Aragorn and the early Kings did. They knew they were not immortal, Elros chose to be mortal, but his later descendants wished too to have the choice to become Elves and regretted Elros' decision. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

09-02-2013, 09:05 AM	#5
Mornorngûr Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Angband Posts: 36	True, But I did say 'rather selfish in a way'. I am not disputing the fact that indeed they did help to enrich Numenor and brought many things thither. However it would still seem to me that one rule for the elves, and another for the Dunedain, could only lead to jealousy or temptation. __________________ Then Sauron laughed: 'Patience! Not long shall ye abide. But first a song I will sing to you, to ears intent.' Then his flaming eyes he on them bent, and darkness black fell round them all.

09-02-2013, 03:59 PM	#6
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	Different rules and different people. No matter how close the Dúnedain resembled the Elves ["in all things more like to the First-born than any other of the kindreds of Men", Sil, p. 321], they were not Elves and had different fates. However, "A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was NEARER to Valinor." [pp. 320-321] Though mortal they were given a place closer to the immortals than any people. It does seem that for many long life did breed this desire for immortality as they found much delight in the world. I'd say the Dúnedain were being the selfish ones. They were granted great gifts, and still were jealous of the fate of another people. As a result, in wanting more, they lost much, their long life and other gifts although for the purer Dúnedain in the 3rd Age these other gifts still seemed to be common among them. I cannot see those Elves thinking about themselves here, they still came secretly to the island to see the Faithful when the Kings were against them. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

08-05-2013, 11:25 PM	#1
Belegorn Calenmir Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Lorien, with Celeborn and the remaining Galadrim after the Departure of Galadriel. Posts: 6	It could also be that the Elves were mostly too involved with the War of Sauron and Elves to visit Numenor that much. Tar-Aldarion in fact sailed to Middle-earth to assist Gil-Galad in the struggle, though some Elves visited Numenor during that time. They called Aldarion's wife Uinen, the Lady of the Sea, to which she was hugely offended, since she felt like the Sea was stealing her husband from her. So Elves, or at least some, did visit Numenor, though as the years went on, these visits became less and less frequent, especially after Adunakhor became king.

09-03-2013, 09:18 AM	#7
Mornorngûr Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Angband Posts: 36	Indeed the Numenorians, like you say were far more selfish. They should of just been content with the great things they had already been granted, but alas! even with real men in this world, jealousy is something that runs through the veins of most, and men being men are never content and always desire more (well most men). I just think this could have been avoided altogether if the Eldar were not permitted to visit, regardless of selfishness. __________________ Then Sauron laughed: 'Patience! Not long shall ye abide. But first a song I will sing to you, to ears intent.' Then his flaming eyes he on them bent, and darkness black fell round them all.