How close is the published The Silmarillion to JRRT's Silmarillion? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 08-28-2013, 07:35 PM

I think we might have had even less than that if he had had that option. Since Tolkien always wanted to re-write the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings so that they would themselves be more like the Silmarillion I wonder if, had he had the option (as he might have had he released them under some of our current publication laws) he would have actually pulled further printing of the books until he could get around to writing the "correct" versions. And since, as you pointed out, he probably would NEVER have been content with the version he came up with we might have ended up with a world in which TH and LOTR were largely unknown with copies of the originals published before the "pull back" as rare books to be sought out by those with deep pockets and an interest in esoterica. This doesn't happen often but it does sometimes happen (one example I can think of from Chidren's literature was when Kay Thompson banned further publication of all her Eloise books except the first one and it wasn't until her rights expired and publication rights went to the illustrator a few years ago that they came out again.)

Aganzir · 08-29-2013, 12:10 AM

If Tolkien had lived to be 100, the Silmarillion would be vastly different. I believe the published Silmarillion is, despite some wrong choices, about as close to what the Professor himself would have published, had he been forced to do so. You have to make decisions, but Tolkien was too much of a perfectionist and too Niggle to give up his authorial power to change things.

I fully agree with Mith - I also prefer the vast amount of maybe to a few certainties. Besides it gives us more to discuss.

Mithalwen · 08-29-2013, 12:19 AM

Yes, as I meant to write after my ref to the other author that Tolkien had never finished with his characters, writing the quite complex and fascinating essaya on the battle of the Fords of Isen , woodwoses etc after the publication of LoTR while the only account of Tuor in Gondolin was ao earlythat it ccouldn't easily be integrated.

I suposw what we have is the reault of having a scholar as literary executor rather than a storyteller 'I don't mean that to sound perjorative - CRT haa taken an approach which has prioritised his father's original texts at the expense of simplistic storytelling. Someone else might have taken the bare bones of the tales and fleshed them out into what they thought was a good story and the films indicate what you can get when that approach happens.

So since I love the world over the stories I am glad we have what we have.

I didn't realise that about the publication laws and I can imagine that happening.

Mornorngûr · 08-29-2013, 09:45 AM

The published Sil may not be exactly how J.R.R would have done it himself, and yes there are flaws, but Christopher did the best that he could do to try and carry out his fathers wishes and designs.

I believe the biggest errors in regards to any of Tolkien's works, are the movies by Peter Jackson.

I wish the film rights were never sold.

Aiwendil · 08-29-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Tolkien always wanted to re-write the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings so that they would themselves be more like the Silmarillion

That's not entirely true. He was actually much more focused on re-writing the Silmarillion material to match The Lord of the Rings rather than the other way around. As far as I know, he had no plans to extensively revise The Lord of the Rings - he did make a few minor changes for the second edition, and if he had lived longer, it's possible that further small changes would have been made; but during his lifetime he did not contemplate major changes (or at least, left no record of such contemplation).

He did at one point intend to completely re-write The Hobbit, and he wrote a few chapters of the revision, which were published in Rateliff's The History of the Hobbit. But in the end he decided against such a major revision, and instead made only minor changes subsequently.

Mithalwen · 08-29-2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mornorngûr

The published Sil may not be exactly how J.R.R would have done it himself, and yes there are flaws, but Christopher did the best that he could do to try and carry out his fathers wishes and designs.

I believe the biggest errors in regards to any of Tolkien's works, are the movies by Peter Jackson.

I wish the film rights were never sold.

Unfortunately the Tax regime at the time meant that Tolkien was liable for a tax rate of up to 136% on accruals basis..ie that he might have to pay over a third over what he had actually earnt before he received the cash due to a surcharge and supertax. Sadly at that point he probably really did need the cash.

TheLostPilgrim · 08-29-2013, 03:16 PM

But the question is, would JRRT have approved of the published version as put out by his son?

If so, could that perhaps settle the "is it canon?" debate?

I mean if JRRT would've approved, I'd call that canon.

I mean, Tolkien himself never seems to have decided what were "canon" elements of the Silmarillion, and it seems Christopher went off his father's notes and efforts to the best of his ability--Sort of the way Bilbo would've transcribed likely conflicting Elven histories of ancient, perhaps slightly misremembered days, to the best of his ability.

Inziladun · 08-29-2013, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

But the question is, would JRRT have approved of the published version as put out by his son?

I don't believe that's ultimately an answerable question. I like to Tolkien would have been satisfied, or as much as an author with such an ever questing, questioning mind could be. No doubt he could have thought of improvements, but when is that not the case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

If so, could that perhaps settle the "is it canon?" debate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

I mean, Tolkien himself never seems to have decided what were "canon" elements of the Silmarillion, and it seems Christopher went off his father's notes and efforts to the best of his ability--Sort of the way Bilbo would've transcribed likely conflicting Elven histories of ancient, perhaps slightly misremembered days, to the best of his ability.

Your words about the long efforts of CT lead at least me to think of the published Silmarillion as canon. I know that since its release Christopher himself has found new notes and writings from time to time that suggest the book should have had some changes, but it doesn't seem to have concerned him enough to "update" The Silmarillion in order to incorporate any of the new (or old) ideas.

jallanite · 08-29-2013, 08:46 PM

Christopher Tolkien’s rmarks on The Silmarillion as published nowhere indicate that it is more than an attempt by his son to more-or-less put out what his father wrote.

Christopher Tolkien’s various remarks about what he sees as errors by himself in The Silmarillion is enough to indicate he himself does not consider the published Silmarillion as canon. That he has not corrected those points shows no more that he sees no point in correcting a work that was never intended to be canon to make it canon. Indeed, Christopher Tolkien never uses the term canon.

When discussions on particular points of Tolkien’s legendarium come up, those discussing the points are quite ready to bring in material from Christopher Tolkien’s HoME series and these are accepted as pertinent to the discussion. No-one insists that the words of Christopher Tolkien in the published Silmarillion have any priority over his father’s words as given by him elsewhere.

That is not normally so with variant versions of material which was published in J. R. R. Tolkien’s lifetime.

Christopher Tolkien wrote in his Foreword: “I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistant narrative.” In later writing Christopher Tolkien clearly indicates that he regrets certain of the decisions he made then.

That Christopher Tolkien has not produced a new version is said to show that Christopher Tolkien is totally satisfied with his edition. Yet Christopher Tolkien again and again says that he is not satisfied with it. It therefore appears to me that Christopher Tolkien is indicating that he cannot find a way to produce a version that would totally satisfy him, that a perfect Silmarillion is impossible to produce.

Inziladun’s solution to simply ignore Christopher Tolkien’s words in those cases is very unsatisfactory.

08-29-2013, 12:10 AM	#2
Aganzir Woman of Secret Shadow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells Posts: 4,511	If Tolkien had lived to be 100, the Silmarillion would be vastly different. I believe the published Silmarillion is, despite some wrong choices, about as close to what the Professor himself would have published, had he been forced to do so. You have to make decisions, but Tolkien was too much of a perfectionist and too Niggle to give up his authorial power to change things. I fully agree with Mith - I also prefer the vast amount of maybe to a few certainties. Besides it gives us more to discuss. __________________ He bit me, and I was not gentle.

08-29-2013, 12:19 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Yes, as I meant to write after my ref to the other author that Tolkien had never finished with his characters, writing the quite complex and fascinating essaya on the battle of the Fords of Isen , woodwoses etc after the publication of LoTR while the only account of Tuor in Gondolin was ao earlythat it ccouldn't easily be integrated. I suposw what we have is the reault of having a scholar as literary executor rather than a storyteller 'I don't mean that to sound perjorative - CRT haa taken an approach which has prioritised his father's original texts at the expense of simplistic storytelling. Someone else might have taken the bare bones of the tales and fleshed them out into what they thought was a good story and the films indicate what you can get when that approach happens. So since I love the world over the stories I am glad we have what we have. I didn't realise that about the publication laws and I can imagine that happening. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-29-2013, 09:45 AM	#4
Mornorngûr Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Angband Posts: 36	The published Sil may not be exactly how J.R.R would have done it himself, and yes there are flaws, but Christopher did the best that he could do to try and carry out his fathers wishes and designs. I believe the biggest errors in regards to any of Tolkien's works, are the movies by Peter Jackson. I wish the film rights were never sold. __________________ Then Sauron laughed: 'Patience! Not long shall ye abide. But first a song I will sing to you, to ears intent.' Then his flaming eyes he on them bent, and darkness black fell round them all.

08-28-2013, 07:35 PM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	I think we might have had even less than that if he had had that option. Since Tolkien always wanted to re-write the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings so that they would themselves be more like the Silmarillion I wonder if, had he had the option (as he might have had he released them under some of our current publication laws) he would have actually pulled further printing of the books until he could get around to writing the "correct" versions. And since, as you pointed out, he probably would NEVER have been content with the version he came up with we might have ended up with a world in which TH and LOTR were largely unknown with copies of the originals published before the "pull back" as rare books to be sought out by those with deep pockets and an interest in esoterica. This doesn't happen often but it does sometimes happen (one example I can think of from Chidren's literature was when Kay Thompson banned further publication of all her Eloise books except the first one and it wasn't until her rights expired and publication rights went to the illustrator a few years ago that they came out again.)

08-29-2013, 03:16 PM	#7
TheLostPilgrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 72	But the question is, would JRRT have approved of the published version as put out by his son? If so, could that perhaps settle the "is it canon?" debate? I mean if JRRT would've approved, I'd call that canon. I mean, Tolkien himself never seems to have decided what were "canon" elements of the Silmarillion, and it seems Christopher went off his father's notes and efforts to the best of his ability--Sort of the way Bilbo would've transcribed likely conflicting Elven histories of ancient, perhaps slightly misremembered days, to the best of his ability.

08-29-2013, 08:46 PM	#9
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Christopher Tolkien’s rmarks on The Silmarillion as published nowhere indicate that it is more than an attempt by his son to more-or-less put out what his father wrote. Christopher Tolkien’s various remarks about what he sees as errors by himself in The Silmarillion is enough to indicate he himself does not consider the published Silmarillion as canon. That he has not corrected those points shows no more that he sees no point in correcting a work that was never intended to be canon to make it canon. Indeed, Christopher Tolkien never uses the term canon. When discussions on particular points of Tolkien’s legendarium come up, those discussing the points are quite ready to bring in material from Christopher Tolkien’s HoME series and these are accepted as pertinent to the discussion. No-one insists that the words of Christopher Tolkien in the published Silmarillion have any priority over his father’s words as given by him elsewhere. That is not normally so with variant versions of material which was published in J. R. R. Tolkien’s lifetime. Christopher Tolkien wrote in his Foreword: “I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistant narrative.” In later writing Christopher Tolkien clearly indicates that he regrets certain of the decisions he made then. That Christopher Tolkien has not produced a new version is said to show that Christopher Tolkien is totally satisfied with his edition. Yet Christopher Tolkien again and again says that he is not satisfied with it. It therefore appears to me that Christopher Tolkien is indicating that he cannot find a way to produce a version that would totally satisfy him, that a perfect Silmarillion is impossible to produce. Inziladun’s solution to simply ignore Christopher Tolkien’s words in those cases is very unsatisfactory.