Sauron's Super Army?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

As far as we know all of those who took the mortal rings did so willingly, but I'm not sure this is a prerequisite for the rings power and corruption to work. If he had unlimited mortal rings it would offer him the option of forcibly bonding anyone who was too much trouble to him. Capture the individual, force a ring on his finger and then either keep him chained up until the corruption did it's job or stab him through the heart with a Morgul blade (assuming my theories are correct and 1. the blade part of a Morgul knife can be replaced for additional uses (so they aren't quite as rare and valuable as they seem) and 2. If a Morgul knife is actually inserted DIRECTLY into the heart, wraithification occurs INSTANTLY). In short the amount of uses Sauron could have put additional rings or ring re-use to are so large it's is safe to assume that if he could have, he would have and that since he didn't he couldn't.

That's interesting about the idea of forcible "wraithification". I would think that the reason Sauron didn't use that tack was that a willfully evil mind was more preferable for his purposes than an innocent/unwilling mind. And like I said, I think that the mere acceptance of something like a Ring of Power, which gave influence over the physical and spiritual world beyond the original measure of the wearer, was in itself a "sin", leaving the user more vulnerable to its effects. Someone having a ring forced on them might take a good deal longer to transform, as they would know from the start to be wary and to attempt to fight its effects. And those effects in the end might not have been quite the same as for a willing bearer, as maybe the difference of the influence of the One on Gollum and Bilbo might indicate.

[Alfirin]

All true. I never meant that I thought it did happen merely that, in a world where the ring supply was unlimited, Sauron might have attempted the experiment. It probably would take longer, but it mostly likey would happen in the end. Consider Frodo himself, as far as we can tell he did not "want" the power of the ring initially, but it did beat him down eventually. But I agree it might have taken a bit longer, perhaps too long in the case of simply waiting. Plus there is the matter of keeping the person alive until then (something tells me that Sauron's minions are probably not all that good at things like force feeding so unless Sauron was willing to expend addional power in keeping the individual alive a lot would probably simply starve themselves to death before succumbing. Plus, we are probably talking about a lot of people of Numenorian/Gondorian blood causing another problem with keeping them alive (I tend to interpret their ability to "give up life" as also allowing them to, in hopeless situations, simply WILL themselves to death.) So the "knife trick" would probably have to be real. But if it was then possibly forcible wraithification would have been possible and Sauron would had whole platoons of Nazgul "Poissible motto "Some are Born Wraith, Some Achieve Wraithness, and Some have Wraithness thrust upon them.

[Mornorngûr]

Great reply's people, and I agree with what you have said here for the most part. Of course I wasn't saying that he could have re-distributed the rings, it was just an interesting idea that came to my mind. However I still think that there was some possibility of corrupting Ar-Pharazon with a ring of power that belonged to the Dwarves, if he had recovered any at this point?.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mornorngûr

However I still think that there was some possibility of corrupting Ar-Pharazon with a ring of power that belonged to the Dwarves, if he had recovered any at this point?.

There's no concrete information as to exactly what was the manner of disposition of the Seven (or Nine, of course), nor do we know how quickly Sauron recovered the three that survived. I wouldn't think though, that there had been sufficient time for him to have recovered any before the Downfall of Númenor, for him to have had enough time to satisfactorily observe their effects on the wearers, and to have brought about their recovery. After all, it wasn't until the lifetime of Thorin Oakenshield's father Thráin in the Third Age that that ring, spoken of by Thráin as "the last of the Seven" was taken back.

I think there are other reasons too that would have held Sauron back from trying to turn a Númenórean king.
For one thing, it really wasn't necessary to do that to Ar-Pharazôn. He was for all practical purposes a puppet ruler when Sauron was in Númenor, and when Sauron already had that sort of control, using one of the precious Rings would have been overkill.

More importantly though, Sauron might not have wanted the masses in Númenor seeing what the end product of the wraith-process really entailed. It might have frightened them enough to have turned them off their path in which they strove for immortality. My thought of that is that the state of the Nazgûl was actually what immortality was for a mortal. They could not get new life, only a lengthening of what they had already, and seeing that displayed openly in the figure of their king might have led to some serious soul-searching which could have derailed Sauron's plans.

[Mornorngûr]

Yeah I guess you are right, Iziladun. Sauron probably wouldnt have recovered any of 'The 7' by this time, and he would not have been able to to determine their effects on the wearers.

More importantly though, Sauron might not have wanted the masses in Númenor seeing what the end product of the wraith-process really entailed. It might have frightened them enough to have turned them off their path in which they strove for immortality. My thought of that is that the state of the Nazgûl was actually what immortality was for a mortal. They could not get new life, only a lengthening of what they had already, and seeing that displayed openly in the figure of their king might have led to some serious soul-searching which could have derailed Sauron's plans.

I suppose this was indeed the only kind of immortality to be had by a mortal and like you say seeing it would have terrified them. 'The Faithful' did not agree with how Ar-Pharazon was ruling (under Sauron) and still more Numenorians would have been horrified if their king became a Wraith, and would turn away from him.

[Zigûr]

Just to briefly revive this thread if I may, I noticed the following when doing a bit of reading for another thread the other day, from Akallabêth as Sauron laughs in the temple at the departure of Ar-Pharazôn:

"and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever"

This would put it fairly plainly in my view that Sauron quite determinedly did not want to rule the Númenoréans - he wanted to exterminate them. Not necessarily the most practical course of action, but Sauron was a very evil being, and surely sheer hatred must at times have trumped reason, especially regarding those enemies who had obstructed his plans and humiliated him.

[NogrodtheGreat]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This would put it fairly plainly in my view that Sauron quite determinedly did not want to rule the Númenoréans - he wanted to exterminate them. Not necessarily the most practical course of action, but Sauron was a very evil being, and surely sheer hatred must at times have trumped reason, especially regarding those enemies who had obstructed his plans and humiliated him.

This is interesting and perhaps correct, but it is belied by Sauron's utter patience and meticulousness in his take down of the Numenoreans. In some sense he was supremely rational in the way he went about it. I think in the end you are correct - Sauron wanted to destroy them, but not only because of his hatred. He wanted Numenor out of the geopolitical picture, for one.

With this achieved, he wouldn't have had much trouble destroying Gil-galad and then taking all of Middle-earth. Only the formation of Gondor and Arnor really stopped him in the end - without the Last Alliance and its manpower he probably would have conquered the world.