The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-04-2013, 11:09 AM   #1
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2013, 02:04 PM   #2
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
True, the two are not precisely the same, because Isaac's sacrifice was a deliberate test of Abraham's faith, whereas there's no evidence of that being the case with Aulë.

Still, it's an interesting parallel.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2013, 05:20 PM   #3
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I suppose it is also a contrast to Feanor's refusal to sacrifice his own creation.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2013, 06:36 PM   #4
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
I suppose it is also a contrast to Feanor's refusal to sacrifice his own creation.
I hadn't thought of that before, but that's intriguing also. A little humility and knowledge of one's ultimate place goes a long way.

There's the obvious contrast too with Morgoth, who wanted to have his own subjects to rule, not students to teach, as Aulë.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 04:38 AM   #5
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
Morthoron, you seem like a Hobbit to me - "You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch" Well, maybe the first part is an exaggeration, but still, great point. I was thinking of the same parallel myself, it crossed my mind in comparison to the fact that the story shows the same pattern at the "culminating point" - the one who is offering his future/creation listens to the divine command, not only once (and then it would end up with him destroying his "progeny" in blind obedience to previous order), but continuously (when the other one speaks for the second time in order to make him stop from what he's about to do). As to what Zil said, of course, the difference is that in the case of Abraham it's meant to be a test, but then again, for all practical purposes Aulë's case is the same. (Of course, for Aulë it also doesn't have such an existential meaning - he's not throwing away his only future. Though, what do we know about how much the Dwarves meant for him?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
I hadn't thought of that before, but that's intriguing also. A little humility and knowledge of one's ultimate place goes a long way.

There's the obvious contrast too with Morgoth, who wanted to have his own subjects to rule, not students to teach, as Aulë.
I think the main, obvious contrast is, like Inzil said, with Melkor, who also became impatient (already before Ainulindalë, with the emptiness of the Void). This, by the way, also shows, in my opinion, how close Aulë was to Melkor in certain ways of thinking, and shows why Aulë's former Maiar (Sauron, Saruman) were the ones most prone to fall: the lack of the humility, which is shown here by Aulë, basically breaks all the differences between Aulë and Melkor (or their servants). In other words: the story also means to show the difference between Aulë and Melkor; it is fine to be impatient with the Creator's slow-moving plan and it is not a terrible and unforgivable transgression, it's the arrogance and stubborn rebellion (with no logical cause, since this story proves that eventually, Eru even let Aulë's designs enrichen Arda in the way Aulë would have wanted to) that is the core problem of the whole... well, the whole Eä.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:33 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.