Sauron and Istari

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...the fact you are referring to (that Gandalf did not claim the Ring, even though he had had plenty of time for that) would perhaps have further convinced Sauron that whether the guys he is facing are Maiar or not, they are just weak fools. For example (this is pure speculation, but it is one possible way Sauron could have looked at the thing), Sauron could have told himself: okay, Gandalf is a Maia. However, he did not take the Ring. Instead, he possibly wants to give it to Isildur's heir. Why? Answer: obviously, because he feels himself too weak to claim it for himself! Ergo, he must be SO limited by his body, that he's somehow totally weak! Therefore, useless and not dangerous. End of debate, for Sauron. I think such kind of thinking is exactly what we know Sauron to be prone to.

Well, I would argue that Maiar post a grave threat due to this particular reason - they have more potential to master The Ring than anyone else apart from, possibly, Galadriel. Sauron had already had an experience of what an embodied Maia could do - Melian. Even foolish and somewhat weak they could get an understanding of The Ring's potential quicker than anyone else and highly likely to find shortcuts to mastering it as they had dealt with that enormous power potentials back in Aman.

Sauron could hardly consider Gandalf weak after him killing a Balrog (or the Balrog was also weak and there was some contagious weakness that pursued Maiar in Middle Earth). He probably was very happy to find out that The Ring slipped between two Maiar killing each other (may be instigating the fight), and then Galadriel was (he might have thought this) deceived by Aragorn and Frodo. But later Gandalf The White, as we remember, struggled with Sauron (so they had a personal encounter!) sitting at Amon Hen. As I can remember, Gandalf was distracting Sauron from Frodo, thus he should have employed a formidable power to attract Sauron's attention and keep struggling for a long time.

It could, however, happened that Sauron was able to pull all confusing bits together only after Gandalf had appeared in Minas Tirith repelling Nazgul from Faramir's troops and it was really too late to make amendments.

I'd say that thinking someone weak would not take the Ring to himself is (in my opinion) going to contradict everything Sauron implied about the nature of the Ring and people. NO-ONE who sees it can resist its charm, that's how he designed it...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Sauron could hardly consider Gandalf weak after him killing a Balrog (or the Balrog was also weak and there was some contagious weakness that pursued Maiar in Middle Earth).

I think it's doubtful Sauron knew anything of the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog. The community of Orcs in Moria seems to be a pretty self-contained unit, not having much to do with outside events. There is no evidence the Balrog ever left Moria after it entered, and Sauron apparently never went into the Mines. From that, Sauron could have had only a passing knowledge of the Balrog, and maybe not even that; for if he knew it was there, would he not at some point tried to reach out to it?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

But later Gandalf The White, as we remember, struggled with Sauron (so they had a personal encounter!) sitting at Amon Hen. As I can remember, Gandalf was distracting Sauron from Frodo, thus he should have employed a formidable power to attract Sauron's attention and keep struggling for a long time.

Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that he "sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed".

But he later says, when discussing the recovered Palantír of Orthanc

'Maybe, I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so. But even if I found the power to withdraw myself, it would be disastrous for him to see me yet--until the hour comes, when secrecy will avail no longer.'

TT The Palantír

That shows a clear difference between Gandalf's action in distracting Sauron from Frodo, and outright revealing himself. Sauron seemingly did not know Gandalf was behind the turning of his Eye from Frodo.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it's doubtful Sauron knew anything of the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog. The community of Orcs in Moria seems to be a pretty self-contained unit, not having much to do with outside events. There is no evidence the Balrog ever left Moria after it entered, and Sauron apparently never went into the Mines. From that, Sauron could have had only a passing knowledge of the Balrog, and maybe not even that; for if he knew it was there, would he not at some point tried to reach out to it?

I think Sauron paid a lot of attention to any great power that was around. Durin's Bane destroyed the mightiest dwarfs' kingdom and that said for itself. I think Sauron kept his Eye on Moria as that was a power that could impose a serious threat.

I am also sure that Sauron was informed about a three days of unprecedented fireworks on the very top of the Misty Mountains and would rather send someone to check what happened there.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Sauron had already had an experience of what an embodied Maia could do - Melian. Even foolish and somewhat weak they could get an understanding of The Ring's potential quicker than anyone else and highly likely to find shortcuts to mastering it as they had dealt with that enormous power potentials back in Aman.

But an incarnate Maia was an altogether different proposition to one of the Istari, who purposely had the weaknesses and frailties of Men, and whose power was confined. Even Gandalf the White had very limited power compared to a normal incarnate Maia.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I'd say that thinking someone weak would not take the Ring to himself is (in my opinion) going to contradict everything Sauron implied about the nature of the Ring and people. NO-ONE who sees it can resist its charm, that's how he designed it...

I think Sauron would have dismissed anyone who denied the Ring as a fool, not as someone of high moral stature. He was no longer capable of understanding the difference; he believed that everything everyone did was, in the same way as himself, for the sake of power.

We've already observed that Sauron believed (or had convinced himself) that Eru no longer cared about Arda, so he surely couldn't have recognised that Gandalf was by that stage present through the direct intervention of Eru himself. Surely he must not even have known that Gandalf had died and been resurrected.

[Sarumian]

Zigûr,

I really like your commentaries but am going to question this one. I did not come across any place where Tolkien states that Istari's powers were limited in any other way than via prohibition to exercise them freely. I tend to think they retained there power as Maiar but were ordered to hide it and use only in the situation of emergency. Incarnation does not necessarily limit supernatural powers and we can find an example in Christian theology.

I do not think Sauron would imagine a Maia who would reject the Ring.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I really like your commentaries but am going to question this one. I did not come across any place where Tolkien states that Istari's powers were limited in any other way than via prohibition to exercise them freely. I tend to think they retained there power as Maiar but were ordered to hide it and use only in the situation of emergency. Incarnation does not necessarily limit supernatural powers and we can find an example in Christian theology.

Perhaps not. I am not convinced, however, that their power was purely down to obligation, because it seems logical to me that had this been the case the fallen Saruman would have been far more personally dangerous than he actually was.

In lieu of a definitive answer as to what Sauron thought about Gandalf denying the Ring I can only give you speculation, but that is all that is possible. We already have established that Sauron did not understand Gandalf. He must have assumed that his apparent failure to seize the Ring was either stupidity or part of some wider bid for power. What other answer is there?

EDIT: It might also be worth recalling the remarks in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Wizards were "real and not feigned" and that "being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." This sounds altogether different to me than the way in which the Ainur conventionally became incarnate. The bodies of the Wizards seem less like mere clothing than the they were among the Ainur when regularly incarnate.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I am not convinced, however, that their power was purely down to obligation, because it seems logical to me that had this been the case the fallen Saruman would have been far more personally dangerous than he actually was.

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In lieu of a definitive answer as to what Sauron thought about Gandalf denying the Ring I can only give you speculation, but that is all that is possible. We already have established that Sauron did not understand Gandalf. He must have assumed that his apparent failure to seize the Ring was either stupidity or part of some wider bid for power. What other answer is there?.

Think, Sauron might have suspected an intrigue. He might have thought, Gandalf wanted The Ring but after he had established it was The One, he had no chance to do it decently. Isildur's heir had more right to keep it. Sauron might have thought Gandalf is around as a scavenger who is going to wait till Aragorn is dead and pick up The Ring for himself.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

EDIT: It might also be worth recalling the remarks in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Wizards were "real and not feigned" and that "being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." This sounds altogether different to me than the way in which the Ainur conventionally became incarnate. The bodies of the Wizards seem less like mere clothing than the they were among the Ainur when regularly incarnate.

I agree with that and suffering limits the ability to act. However, this is rather the limitation not on power itself but on the way it manifests itself and can be used.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

I think what Gandalf did was strip Saruman of all authority to act as a representative of the Valar in Middle-earth: hence the symbolic breaking of Saruman's "badge", his staff, and the head of the staff falling at Gandalf's feet making him the new "head" of the Istari. That had the effect of greatly limiting Saruman's power to affect his environment. Gandalf said his one remaining "tooth" was his voice, and that might have been less a part of his "powers", and more akin to an innate gift with which he had been created.

[Andsigil]

No doubt there will be people here who will point out that I'm in error, but I've always felt that, since they were all Maiar, Sauron and the Istari knew each other from their days before coming to Middle Earth.

I never got the impression that the Maia population was so big that Sauron, for example hadn't met, or at least heard of Curumo (Saruman) or Olórin (Gandalf) while they were in Valinor for a few thousand years.