Sauron versus Aragorn

[Zigûr]

Then again if we'd seen Peter Jackson's interpretation of Gil-Galad's canonical death by the "heat of Sauron's hand" presumably he would have exploded into a twenty-foot pillar of fire and run screaming off a cliff-top flailing his arms, thus foreshadowing Denethor's championship-title earning Marathon Man whilst-on-fire run in the third film.

Perhaps then Elrond could have ridden to the summit of Minas Tirith all the way from Rivendell (having just returned there after delivering Andúril) to deliver an arch comment about how back in his day Elves died in flames better than Men.

[Belegorn]

I don't get the feeling that Gil-galad ran, even though he was burned to death, in any sense. haha

[Calacirya]

The movie couldn't have been the same as the book for a myriad of reasons. Most of which would be absolutely undeniably boring on screen.
Another thing, those movies got millions interested in the works of Tolkien. These two facts combined, I can't believe a person actually took on the task of bringing something so incredible onscreen. What a daunting task. He did the best he could and if any one of you tried to make a film adaptation the same number or even more would be upset with your version for various reasons. He's a director, not a literary master. He did what he could with what he felt and what he knew and, you know, I couldn't imagine the courage.

As far as the eyeball thing goes, he's right. In the books it was very situational evil that had the fellowship and other allies on their toes, rarely was it ever specifically Sauron. It's even been said by fans that the books didn't do much of a job at conveying the pain (mental or, later, physical) Frodo is in from the ring during the books aside from Frodo siding with Gollum increasingly as their relationship develops.

Jackson thought that Aragorn, as the pointedly heroic protagonist of the story, should fight Sauron as a way of retribution not only for the evil he's caused, but because Aragorn may have felt the need to conquer the history of his bloodline that haunted his thoughts about being able to rule Gondor.
Obviously, in the end he decided to leave it out because, and according to Jackson's logic which I thought was very considerate, it doesn't take a battle to prove you're a hero, as we see with Frodo. He acknowledged that Aragorn was not our true hero, as the Hollywood stereotype would argue, but Frodo, the character that drew his sword as little as possible during his battle, because it was inward.

The books are the books, and the movies are the movies. I just think they should be judged on their own merit instead of comparing the two. That's the only reason I defend Jackson. Of COURSE I wish it was more like the books I've loved and adored for years, but that's not what I got. I don't know, I just think it's cool in it's own way, and the works of Tolkien can never be devalued by any work by another whether by film, literature, or any other kind of media. Tolkien is ultimately untouchable.

[jallanite]

[quote=Calacirya;686816]The movie couldn't have been the same as the book for a myriad of reasons. Most of which would be absolutely undeniably boring on screen.[/quọte]

You are making up the “undeniably boring”. Numerous posts have complained about many features of the film. Now if the original poster has changed his or her mind, then you may have a case that this particular change would be “undeniably boring”. Otherwise, it is provable that many people deny what you falsely claim is undeniable.

You might better try to prove that they are wrong rather than that they cannot deny what they so obviously are denying. Be precise.

I am unaware of anyone who claims that any film must follow a book exactly. But comparisons between the book and the film are common among people who have read a book and then seen a film adaptation. Claims that a film cannot be the same as a book are true in general, but do you wish to prevent persons from posting cases where they honestly feel that the film was far worse than the book and did not need to be?

Another thing, those movies got millions interested in the works of Tolkien. These two facts combined, I can't believe a person actually took on the task of bringing something so incredible onscreen.

So you do not believe that Peter Jackson or Ralph Bakshi “actually took on the task of bringing something so incredible onscreen”? Well both did. If you claim that what you posted wasn’t what you meant, then perhaps you should post more carefully.

Ẉhat a daunting task. He did the best he could and if any one of you tried to make a film adaptation the same number or even more would be upset with your version for various reasons. He's a director, not a literary master. He did what he could with what he felt and what he knew and, you know, I couldn't imagine the courage.

I get your point. Jackson is perfect and is not to be criticized. But many people have criticized him and still do. Many think that if that was “the best he could do”, then he was not the director to produce the films. Understand that tastes differ, and that those who think differently than you have just a much right to post here, if their opinions make sense. The dislike of Sauron as a mobile eyeball is something that makes sense to me.

As far as the eyeball thing goes, he's right. In the books it was very situational evil that had the fellowship and other allies on their toes, rarely was it ever specifically Sauron. It's even been said by fans that the books didn't do much of a job at conveying the pain (mental or, later, physical) Frodo is in from the ring during the books aside from Frodo siding with Gollum increasingly as their relationship develops.

You start by mentioning the eyeball, claim that Jackson was right, then ignore it altogether. If you have something to say about the eyeball, then try to say it clearly. You have not even presented your argument.

Jackson thought that Aragorn, as the pointedly heroic protagonist of the story, should fight Sauron as a way of retribution not only for the evil he's caused, but because Aragorn may have felt the need to conquer the history of his bloodline that haunted his thoughts about being able to rule Gondor.
Obviously, in the end he decided to leave it out because, and according to Jackson's logic which I thought was very considerate, it doesn't take a battle to prove you're a hero, as we see with Frodo. He acknowledged that Aragorn was not our true hero, as the Hollywood stereotype would argue, but Frodo, the character that drew his sword as little as possible during his battle, because it was inward.

Possibly true. But then why did Jackson even intend to have a one-on-one with Sauron? And why did he make Faramir so tempted by the ring? And why was Denethor portrayed as a selfish glutton? Why was Gimli used so much for comic relief, the jokes almost all having to do with the fact that Gimli is short? Why did Jackson create the idea that Sauron was physically a giant eyeball, and then not use that idea? What was Aragorn’s backstory in the film, in a Middle-earth in which Arnor seems not to have existed. What was the point of Brego the wonder-horse? What was Arwen’s illness near the end?

The books are the books, and the movies are the movies. I just think they should be judged on their own merit instead of comparing the two. That's the only reason I defend Jackson. Of COURSE I wish it was more like the books I've loved and adored for years, but that's not what I got. I don't know, I just think it's cool in it's own way, and the works of Tolkien can never be devalued by any work by another whether by film, literature, or any other kind of media. Tolkien is ultimately untouchable.

In short don’t anyone dare to criticize the films because the original writer is untouchable. Yet you admit that you wish the films were more like the books. Doing so admits the validity of many of the criticisms of the films. Seemingly you just don’t like people posting it openly. Is it that any film, no matter how bad it might be, is acceptable to you, because the books are the books, and the movies are the movies?

Some viewers recognize that it is legitimate to compare a film to the book it is based on and legitimate to say where they feel the film falls down or perhaps surpasses the book.

[denethorthefirst]

I absolutely hated the portrayal of denethor and gondor in general, it feels like a silly caricature without any depth whatsoever. Minas Tirith is just disappointing, where are the farmlands, the city and culture simply do not feel real and the disgusting interpretation of denethor is just the tip of the iceberg. And Gandalf knocks him out for comedic effect ...
Sadly out of all he movies only one (the fellowship) is any good, it has somewhat the right "tone", a sense of fairy-tale like wonder but it still feels real and believable ... the second and the third movie just do not "feel" right, they feel silly, like b-movie comic-book adaptions without depth.

But can we for a moment dwell on the depiction of Sauron as a giant eyeball ...
How ridiculous is that? What is that even supposed to be, when you think about it? His body? But Saruman said he can't take "physical form" ...
So it's supposed to be his spirit? ... In eye-form?
...
Nearly everyone who has read the Book must have understood that tolkiens usage of the "eye" is just a metaphor for the watchfulness and the inhuman, never sleeping power of Sauron. This "mistake" alone disqualifies Jackson in my opinion and I agree with the other posters that they probably just had no idea how to handle Sauron and so took the easy way out: "ah €?!&@ it, he's an eye". It was tolerable in the first movie because the camera didn't dwell on it and it was shot in a hazy way, so you could actually interpret it as a mental image ... In the second film there are several clear shots of this absurd monstrosity, but at least it's static ... But for whatever reason, in the third movie this thing starts moving like a lighthouse, like something out of a Saturday-morning cartoon and that just took me completely out of the movie and destroyed any supsension of disbelief that had survived until then. When I saw that for the first time I had to laugh out loud, it's just so unintentionally funny, ridiculous and absurd ...

A competent filmmaker would have captured the eery atmosphere of Barad-Dur and the inhuman horror of the inner court of sauron, whiteout necessarily showing sauron himself, and we would have a credible and believable villain.

But the eye is only the tip of the ice berg, removing that absurdity would not make the movies better and I could list dozens of other things that are just wrong in my opinion. I agree with the posters that said that the fact that the filmmakers even considered the Aragorn-Sauron duel, shows that they just didn't "get" Tolkien!

[Marwhini]

I had little idea that there were others who shared almost the same level of disdain for PJ's movies pretending to be the work of Tolkien as I have of them.

I often use the metaphor of a Catholic Mass and Communion.

Peter Jackson has dressed up four guys in black robes, handing out beer and pizza in an auditorium, an told us it is a Catholic Mass and Communion in a Medieval Gothic Cathedral.

Well... Pete... You have some of the elements that are similar.... You just missed out on the particulars, and most of all the Substance of a Catholic Mass and Communion.

His vision is beautiful and visually stunning. I will be happy to give him that much.

But he did not have a clue as to what he was leaping into when he made the movies.

And the sad fact is that Paramount, New Line, and Saul Zaentz (or his Estate) have now so sewn up the Rights to Tolkien's legacy that it will likely never be available again until it is in the Public Domain.

The proposed Fight between Aragorn and Sauron was just further evidence of how out of his depth he was.

MB

[Marwhini]

And let me hand it to the people who made the criticism of Jackson for their portrayal of Denethor (and his death), not to mention Gil-Gilad.

That run that Denethor made while on Fire really had me stunned when I saw the movie.

I was like "He ran roughly a mile while on Fire???!!!"

And Poor Elendil and Gil-Gilad have their epic fight with Sauron cut.

Applause to you guys for pointing these out.

And.... BTW.... There is no real reason why the movies could not have been done like the books. Only modest changes would need to have been made, with very minimal cutting.

MB