Sauron and Istari

[Zigûr]

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

That being said, he must have observed that the Wizards were Maiar of a significantly lower stature than himself - he was one of the great among the Maiar, perhaps of comparable stature to, say, Melian, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen - albeit perhaps not quite as mighty as these particular examples, and certainly not by the end of the Third Age. In a footnote to letter 183 Professor Tolkien observes that Sauron was an angelic spirit "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order." Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

Excellent point. Through what I can tell, there aren't any specific writings acknowledging Sauron's knowing what the Istari are. Sauron knows who the Valar are, and wouldn't be threatened by even a high elf, so it absolutely only makes sense if he assumed (even if it's not stated) that the Istari must be Maiar.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I wish this had been something that Tolkien capitalized on more. I would have like to have seen a more flushed out hierarchy of the Maiar. I highly doubt that any Maia would be weaker than an elf. But, I must concede, that it does not explicitly state whether or not they could be so speculation holds no true merit.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

And that was just hilarious, that got me laughing. Mostly because I agree. He had no reason to, either. He had the power and the resources to not have to hunt on his own. When the Nazgûl for all intents and purposes are nine versions of him that can be running around hunting, there's no reason for Sauron to be a moving target running across Middle Earth. Anywhere far from his stronghold would have quickly lost him access to his allies North and South of Mordor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Calacirya

And that was just hilarious, that got me laughing. Mostly because I agree. He had no reason to, either. He had the power and the resources to not have to hunt on his own. When the Nazgûl for all intents and purposes are nine versions of him that can be running around hunting, there's no reason for Sauron to be a moving target running across Middle Earth. Anywhere far from his stronghold would have quickly lost him access to his allies North and South of Mordor.

I believe that there might be a combination of two main reasons for Sauron's operating through agents in the Third Age. The first was that, as you've stated, it was unnecessary most of the time, and that he needed to have central access to his entire empire - all roads ran to Mordor, as it were, from which he governed both his own realms and those of the lands of Men which he had enslaved.

Secondly, I would argue that Sauron never did anything in person in the Third Age out of fear for his personal safety. Every time Sauron confronted any of his enemies in a contest of arms or combat, he lost. Surely he would not risk his body, so long in the re-shaping after his death at the end of the Second Age, in personal confrontation with any of his enemies. If he did know that Gandalf was a Maia (and I would argue that he probably suspected something of the sort), he presumably considered the Nine, all together or at least several at once, to still be largely sufficient for handling the task. Perhaps the greatest mystery was who possessed Narya - I imagine he anticipated the Nine to have seized the Ring without ever having to approach Rivendell, at which point Elrond was able to put forth the power of an Elven-Ring with some assistance from Gandalf.

Incidentally, he seemingly interrogated Gollum in person, but questions of the whereabouts of the Ring would, I imagine, have been an entirely special case.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I believe that there might be a combination of two main reasons for Sauron's operating through agents in the Third Age. The first was that, as you've stated, it was unnecessary most of the time

Once again, I agree with most of what you say. However, Sauron must have deeply regretted that he was not there that night at Weathertop when five of his most terrible servants missed their chance failing to defeat one strider and four hobbits...

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Calacirya

Sauron knows who the Valar are, and wouldn't be threatened by even a high elf, so it absolutely only makes sense if he assumed (even if it's not stated) that the Istari must be Maiar.

I think, Sauron would be threatened by anyone who was able to master The Ring, unless Sauron believed it was totally impossible. I don't think Gandalf and Galadriel were deceived by The Ring to the extant they were incapable of estimating their own potential.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I think, Sauron would be threatened by anyone who was able to master The Ring, unless Sauron believed it was totally impossible. I don't think Gandalf and Galadriel were deceived by The Ring to the extant they were incapable of estimating their own potential.

Sauron wouldn't be threatened by the wearer of the ring at all. Look what it did to Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. He created the ring to be debilitating to the wearer, and knew that the ring would make them succumb to his darkness.

And yes, I believe you are right about Gandalf and Galadriel, as they were both put in the path of temptation and both rejected it.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

That being said, he must have observed that the Wizards were Maiar of a significantly lower stature than himself - he was one of the great among the Maiar, perhaps of comparable stature to, say, Melian, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen - albeit perhaps not quite as mighty as these particular examples, and certainly not by the end of the Third Age. In a footnote to letter 183 Professor Tolkien observes that Sauron was an angelic spirit "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order." Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

If I recollect it correctly, somewhere in Silmarillion Tolkien says Sauron was the most powerful of all Maiar. I agree, that Sauron have wasted quite a lot of his power by the time of the War of the Ring but still was very potent.

We do not know much neither about orders of Maiar, nor about other orders of spirits but we know from Tolkien, they do exist (a typical point in discussions on Tom Bombadil). From the fact that Istari could get weary one (may be Sauron as well) could conclude they were not elves. They, however, did not look and live like previously known incarnate Maiar.

Finally, if Sauron came to conclusion that Istari were Maiar, it seems he seriously underestimated Gandalf. Thus we can ask if he established their identities as he knew them in Valinor. If he managed to do it, it means that even in Valinor Olorin masterfully kept low profile.

However, even Radagast could have become great and terrible, had he mastered The Ring. Imagine Oliphants ravaging Mordor, innumerable birds blinding orks and Radagast leading Ents and Hurns? Something from Avatar rather then Return of The King...

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

If I recollect it correctly, somewhere in Silmarillion Tolkien says Sauron was the most powerful of all Maiar. I agree, that Sauron have wasted quite a lot of his power by the time of the War of the Ring but still was very potent.

I do not recall this being said at all. What you may be remembering is:

Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth

...which is from the Silmarillion, but does not imply that Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar.

Never the less, you are correct in assuming that is powers would be diminished, especially if his powers worked in a similar way to Morgoth (the more evil he put forth, the less power was left to he himself).

[Sarumian]

Thanks for replies, they are very convincing. I, however, still think there was no point for Vallar to restrict Istari's inherent powers "physically" - they were naturally limited by their human bodies and the necessity to relearn skills and attitudes in the new environment. Gandalf's battle with the Balrog and Saruman's domination over Isengard and his army are something an "unrestricted" Maya can achieve.

I also would agree now that knowing or not knowing, Sauron could hardly have other way to act - his misunderstanding of Istari's task pre-determined this. May be the fall of Saruman even contributed into Sauron's wrong take on the matter.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Gandalf's battle with the Balrog and Saruman's domination over Isengard and his army are something an "unrestricted" Maya can achieve.

Actually, I think that but for the real incarnations of those two Istari, their efforts in those events could have led to greater success.

The Balrog was not in any way limited in the display of its power, but it's a recurring idea that expenditure of the spirit for evil purposes was a drain on the Valar and Maia. A "chained" Gandalf was still able to beat it, though of course at the cost of his own physical body.

Saruman was inferior to Sauron in power and will, even after the latter's eons-long wasting of his power for evil. Saruman had the limitations, and maybe he would not have fallen under Sauron's sway so easily otherwise, and perhaps could have made his own Ring of Power. Then though, he would have been much more of a threat to the West, as well as to Sauron.
Just speculation, sure, but the "imprisonment" of their spirits in actual mortal bodies was obviously a carefully considered condition when the Valar conceived of the Istari and their mission.

[denethorthefirst]

Sauron and the Maiar that later became the Istari spent eons together before the creation of time and space and they sang together during the music of the Ainur. After the Music they labored side by side for ages during the shaping of Arda and then lived together in Almaren and even in Valinor (although Sauron sympathized and spied for him he openly joined Melkor relatively late (some time after the overthrow of the two lamps)). So it's safe to say that they "knew" each other, but that doesn't necessarily has to mean that Sauron would recognize them in Middle-Earth.
I don't know if he ever discovered their true identities but I am fairly certain that he came to the only logical conclusion: that they must be Maiar sent from Valinor. He also had direct contact with Saruman through the Palantir and it's possible that he recognized him (they served together under Aule).
But even if Sauron didn't immediately recognize Saruman, he dominated him relatively quickly and so either read his mind or forced him to tell him everything about the Istari and their quest. Would he be worried? I guess he would be, not so much because of the Istari themselves (for all intents and purposes they are just supercharged humans, Sauron was far more powerful than any of them and also not limited by his form, whereas the naturally weaker Istari where further weakened by their human Incarnation) but the simple fact that the Valar cared enough to have sent them must have worried him because it demonstrated that the Valar hadn't forgotten or given up on Middle-earth!
See also this thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...?t=2412&page=2