Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

The ambiguity is certainly there. I consider that the Shire Records could simply be misinformation, as we're left to wonder how the hobbit-author came to that conclusion. Did he go to Rivendell himself and speak with Elladan and Elrohir?

In any case, as is noted the departure of Elrond would seem to indeed be a monumental event in the half-elven history. Arwen was forced to choose then, and not only because of her intended mortal husband. The indication is that had she not wedded Aragorn she would have gone with her father. Did she want that? Was Elrond not giving her a choice in the matter, unless she chose mortality to be with Aragorn? Surely that was not it. If so, old Elessar might have kept it in the back of his mind that his wife could have had ulterior motives for marrying him, quite apart from Lúthien-like love. Why could she not delay her choice, if her brothers could?

I also would wonder just how long is enough time to choose, for the brethren. The Third Age ending, and the Dominion of Men beginning would seem an optimal time to make the decision. Just what else would they have been waiting for?

[Alfirin]

Another point to consider would be Eldarion, or more accurately, Aragorn's heir. As you pointed out, there really is no reason why Arwen HAS to renounce her immortality in order to marry Aragorn by any sort of law. Elves marrying mortal men is incredibly rare, but it's not exactly uncheard of (especially in Arwen's own family) So why is it so imperative for Arwen to be mortal to marry him. I think the matter of the heir is at least part. Arwen presumably knows Aragron wants kids (or more accurately, that one of the fundamental needs of any king is to have an heir) Elves, we know tend to have kids pretty late in life (even by thier extended standards) It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live (in other words the difference between being an elf and being a human may be deeper than "one is immortal, one isn't). And come to think of it, if Arwen COULD have kids with Aragorn as an elf, what does that leave those kids? We know that mortal Arwen and mortal Aragorn resulted in mortal Eldarion. If Arwen had still been elf, where would that have left him. Another person with the choice, except NOW the choice is between immortality and rule of the West. We've already seen what the craving for immortality did to the Men of the Numenorian line, imagine what might happen if one of them GOT it; a king of Gondor/Arnor who knew he could basically rule FOREVER. That's probably more tempatation than any human mind can stand without going mad (He'd probably basically turn into a Ringwraith without ring.)

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live

I think she could have kids at her age. It is said in Morgoth's Ring, "their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life... whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding." [212] Since Elves are said to marry even as early as their 50th year and in the above quote it's said that soon after marriage they had kids I think Arwen was clearly old enough to have children. I think it was probably the right time for her to have kids because Elves tended to have kids in times of relative peace although in her case that came when she was human.

[Belegorn]

I would think the trouble with an immortal king of Gondor would not be for the king's own cravings for immortality as he already is immortal, but his mortal descendants who can never claim the throne and die as their ancestor who was able to choose an immortal life cannot share that choice with them. However, I'm not sure he would be fit to rule the Men of Gondor because he would no longer be a Man. So maybe if one of his other siblings choice mortality they would be that ruler and not himself. Or the reign would fall to one of the Dunedain close to the king's house.

[Alfirin]

Well, I was sort of assuming that a king who knew from birth he was immortal might not consider HAVING kids or (as we are talking about a world where one must assume birth control is primitve at best) might actually go so far as making sure no kids he had survived long enough to desire the throne.
Yes, that is fine so long as it is an either or choice (you can be immortal and live an elf's life, or you can be mortal and king. The problem, as I was trying to point out, is what happens when the heir doesn't see any reason he can't have BOTH, to rule Gondor eternally. Yes, as an immortal he would no longer be a man and no longer fit to rule Gondro, but the trick is how the hell you get him to stop, or keep him from the throne. Utimately, it might come down to someone actually having to KILL the king (elves can be slain, so presumably, half elves can as well.)
The danger I was trying to refer to is more a mental one than a pysical one, the human brain just isn't equipped to handling living forever, it would crack. Also having the same person ruling forever might result in total stasis for the world, as the king is likey to get a little "set in his ways" over time. I admit that, in the Tolkien verse, that might not be seen as a bad thing (since the general tone is that thing only get worse over time,the Past is always better than the present or future, and the mark of a "good future" is one that strives to return to the ways of before. But from a modern POV, this sounds pretty horrible.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Aragorn-Arwen marriage wasn't quite like that of Earendil and Elwing: Aragorn was all Man (OK, there was an infinitesimal drop of Elvish blood); whereas Earendil was literally a half-Elf and Elwing roughly so (5/8 Elf). Elrond and Elros therefore were of mixed parentage on both sides, and it wasn't a case of 'choosing' or 'being' or 'having to be' like one or the other parent.

Moreover, the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen re-united the long-sundered branches of the Half-Elven; there was a closure there, a repair of a long-standing disruption of the 'natural order'- and, according to Tolkienian historiography, one which had existed *precisely* to provide a renewed Elvish and angelic strain in the Kings of Men in the new Age of Men. (I suppose it's worth noting that Aragorn was the only living descendant of Elros, it's not like there were other human Children of Luthien knocking around Middle-earth---unlike, say, the new Targaryens that pop up from behind every rock in Westeros......).


Of course, it would help if we could answer the very vexed question of to which race Dior belonged.......

[Belegorn]

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.