Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Alfirin]

Well, I was sort of assuming that a king who knew from birth he was immortal might not consider HAVING kids or (as we are talking about a world where one must assume birth control is primitve at best) might actually go so far as making sure no kids he had survived long enough to desire the throne.
Yes, that is fine so long as it is an either or choice (you can be immortal and live an elf's life, or you can be mortal and king. The problem, as I was trying to point out, is what happens when the heir doesn't see any reason he can't have BOTH, to rule Gondor eternally. Yes, as an immortal he would no longer be a man and no longer fit to rule Gondro, but the trick is how the hell you get him to stop, or keep him from the throne. Utimately, it might come down to someone actually having to KILL the king (elves can be slain, so presumably, half elves can as well.)
The danger I was trying to refer to is more a mental one than a pysical one, the human brain just isn't equipped to handling living forever, it would crack. Also having the same person ruling forever might result in total stasis for the world, as the king is likey to get a little "set in his ways" over time. I admit that, in the Tolkien verse, that might not be seen as a bad thing (since the general tone is that thing only get worse over time,the Past is always better than the present or future, and the mark of a "good future" is one that strives to return to the ways of before. But from a modern POV, this sounds pretty horrible.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Aragorn-Arwen marriage wasn't quite like that of Earendil and Elwing: Aragorn was all Man (OK, there was an infinitesimal drop of Elvish blood); whereas Earendil was literally a half-Elf and Elwing roughly so (5/8 Elf). Elrond and Elros therefore were of mixed parentage on both sides, and it wasn't a case of 'choosing' or 'being' or 'having to be' like one or the other parent.

Moreover, the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen re-united the long-sundered branches of the Half-Elven; there was a closure there, a repair of a long-standing disruption of the 'natural order'- and, according to Tolkienian historiography, one which had existed *precisely* to provide a renewed Elvish and angelic strain in the Kings of Men in the new Age of Men. (I suppose it's worth noting that Aragorn was the only living descendant of Elros, it's not like there were other human Children of Luthien knocking around Middle-earth---unlike, say, the new Targaryens that pop up from behind every rock in Westeros......).


Of course, it would help if we could answer the very vexed question of to which race Dior belonged.......

[Belegorn]

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

As for his characteristics I think we can be sure that Dior was just like the other Half-elven. He even declares himself the first of their kind.


On the case of Elrond's sons, I believe it likely that they eventually sailed to the West. To even want to change ones fate usually took something momentous. Luthien fell in love, Tuor fell in love, Arwen fell in love and Elros was to rule Numenor. Elladan and Elrohir had been living as elves for 3000 years. It does not strike me as likely they would switch without a great change in their lives. We are told they delayed the decision and think it's likely they helped sort out the Northern kingdom and left after things had been settled.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

Since Dior was slain in Middle-earth, his spirit would have come to Mandos, I believe. Since the Valar act in Eärendil's case as if the question of the kindred of the half-elven hadn't occurred to them, I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

... I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

Whether Dior was immortal or not there can be no doubt he was one of the Half-elven.

What makes me think that the issue had yet to be decided is that if Dior and his sons had passed beyond Arda or stayed in Mandos then the Valar would have known precisely how to deal with Earendil. It is also possible that up until that time they were dealing with the problem on a case by case basis.

I just remembered that there is further evidence that Elladan and Elrohir left for Valinor. Arwen and Eldarion are mentioned as the heirs to all the elvish lands. Elrond's sons being older would have a greater claim to these Elvish lands if they had stayed in ME. Since they were passed to Arwen it implies they left with the rest of the Elves.