The Inherent Incompatability of Morgoth and Sauron

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Did he never know the true mind of his master? That if the forces of evil had prevailed and the Host of the West not come, Melkor probably would have done nothing but perhaps start reducing his grand empire to rubble?

I find this observation from 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion' in the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring to be quite relevant regarding Sauron's attitude, especially after the Downfall of Númenor:

"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

Note that this is specified as a delusion, which is the best way of explaining how Sauron, who had irrefutable knowledge of the truth and power of his Creator, could still have the motivations that he did.
More importantly, however, is that phrase "the Valar (including Melkor) having failed."
So Sauron considered Melkor to be a failure, seemingly along with or in the same way as his enemies, the Valar. In what way?

1) Melkor had failed by being defeated and expelled from Eä (or at least Arda). This seems unlikely if we're to read that phrase as Sauron perceiving Melkor and the faithful Valar as equivalent failures.
2) Melkor had proven himself to be too weak, flawed of character or lacking in conviction to carry out his plans, not unlike (it could be argued) the Valar themselves, who had seemingly become very passive.

We can't forget how Morgoth develops as a character. In the beginning Sauron must have perceived Melkor as a being not unlike himself, thinking that Melkor's desire for lordship was equivalent to his own love of order, or at least thinking that the two aims were highly compatible. It was only as he spent more and more of his power in fixation on terrestrial domination that Melkor became the nihilistic Morgoth, evil but also crippled, desiring now only destruction in his resentment of his Creator and his kin.
I think this explains the situation: Sauron did not perceive his incompatibility with Morgoth because at first there was no incompatibility; it developed over time as Morgoth's intentions decomposed. But apparently Sauron did, in the end, come to see Morgoth as a failure, and I would argue that it makes decent sense to imagine that this was because he perceived Morgoth as having failed to uphold the only cause he thought was worthwhile in Arda: the establishment and maintenance of order. I think that in his mind there would be no difference between Morgoth's nihilism and the Valar's passivity. For a being who seemingly believed that the ends entirely justified the means, the situation must have seemed completely rational.

[Boromir88]

To go along with what Zigur brings up with how Sauron originally was drawn Melkor's rebellion because he was you could say, star struck, but Melkor's splendor and ability to implement his designs relatively quickly.

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)~Home X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Later, Morgoth spun downwards into nihilism, and Sauron never reached this stage of chaos, since he still had, what Tolkien calls "relics of positive purposes." I think, given enough time Sauron was following down the same path and would have become a nihilist:

In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.~The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta

I like how you break it down between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil. It sounds like two apt descriptions.

[Inziladun]

To me, the sin of Morgoth and Sauron is practically identical: each believed his version of "order" to be superior to that established By Ilúvatar through his servants, the Valar. Though Melkor merits a greater penalty for being the prime corrupter of the efforts of the Valar, Sauron's telling error was his inability/unwillingness to humble himself after the fall of Morgoth. That should have been a red flag to him that his road was a dangerous one that would lead him to ruin. Pride in the memory of his power under Morgoth filled him though, and pride led him to think he could order the world to his will despite his much greater master being proven incorrect on the same assumption.
It is my belief that anyone can make a mistake, and I don't fault Sauron so much for his initially following Morgoth. What I do criticize him for is his failure to repent when given the chance. Saruman's later fall is a result of the same arrogance and lack of humility.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Later, Morgoth spun downwards into nihilism, and Sauron never reached this stage of chaos, since he still had, what Tolkien calls "relics of positive purposes." I think, given enough time Sauron was following down the same path and would have become a nihilist

I think Third Age Sauron was at the nihilistic point. Whatever had originally guided him to try and make the world his own he had lost sight of, blinded by the prospect of simply having power and control. A world of Orcs and evil men was not his ideal: he preferred to enslave the West. It was not then enough that lesser beings did his will. They should be made to do it against their own.

[mhagain]

I'm inclined to view Sauron as being more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil, at least at the start, and not in the Moorcock/Balance sense but rather in the "I'm looking after my own skin here" sense.

It's definitely the case that he was quite content to sit out the end of the First Age as a boogeyman in Taur-nu-Fuin after Luthien whupped his ***, and his repentance after the War of Wrath indicates that he was prepared to switch sides according to what suited his purpose.

It's really only after the Rings were created that he went fully down the Evil path, IMO. Up until then he's more of a free agent who just happened to side with Melkor because that seemed to be where the smart money was (at least from the perspective of him meeting his goals for order/etc).

[Andsigil]

It's misguided to shoehorn Sauron and Morgoth into alignments from a roleplaying game and declare them compatible or not.

People of different temperaments have followed each other loyally through all ages of history.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

More importantly, however, is that phrase "the Valar (including Melkor) having failed."
So Sauron considered Melkor to be a failure, seemingly along with or in the same way as his enemies, the Valar. In what way?

Can it be the reason of Sauron's brief repentance after the defeat of Melkor? When he found that other Valar were reluctant to take reigns in ME, could he treat that attitude as a confirmation of their failure? May be he even had a hope that taking responsibility for the affairs of ME and ordering he could deserve Eru's respect in the future?

[Nikkolas]

The Valar did nothing but fail. They brought the Firstborn to Valinor, leaving Men all alone to be brainwashed by Morgoth, they allowed most of the Noldor to leave Valinor and get themselves slaughtered, and when they finally did take action most of the greatest Elves and Men ever were already dead and what they all were trying to save was destroyed.

I do not doubt that Sauron, he who is pitiless just like Morgoth, also might even ahve seen the unchaining of Melkor as a failing.

In Sauron's Empire, he would make none of these mistakes. All things would obey his whim as he was the wisest in all Middle-earth and these stupid inferior beings should never be allowed to make their own decisions. After all, look what letting them make their own decisions in the past has led to. (also as for him being the wisest, I'm gonna guess he thought that and I'd say that, in terms of intellect and talent, he was potentially right)

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

In Sauron's Empire, he would make none of these mistakes. All things would obey his whim as he was the wisest in all Middle-earth and these stupid inferior beings should never be allowed to make their own decisions. After all, look what letting them make their own decisions in the past has led to. (also as for him being the wisest, I'm gonna guess he thought that and I'd say that, in terms of intellect and talent, he was potentially right)

And this is why "these stupid inferior beings" needed Olorin's aid more than anything else. Manwe, it seems, took Valar's previous mistakes very seriously when he appointed this Maia to go to ME among other Istari.

[Nikkolas]

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

He had many lands east and south of Mordor under his sway. Whether he was their direct ruler or ruled through puppet monarchs, I'm not sure.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

It's a safe assumption that Sauron had the lands east and south of Mordor under his thumb. Though they may have had their own rulers, Sauron's will would have reigned.

x/d with Andsigil

[Sarumian]

If we are going to make a comparison between to evil (negative) powers, it make sense, I believe, to understand their opposition to the power of Eru which was the source of their own existence.

It seems, Melkor was given powers to operate with any kind of substance and was able to shape it into virtually anything (his only predicament was light, which is not a substance - Melkor could shut it out or steal it but could not call it into being out of nothing). A bigger gap between Melkor and Eru lies in their relationship to time. Melkor, with all his powers, was a temporal (albeit an immortal) creature who apprehends the past, the present and the future roughy in a way we do. He lives in Time. For Eru, on the contrary, all moments of time are "present" simultaneously. Time exists within Eru's mind. I would roughly liken Eru to an author of a story, in which all others serve just as characters. While Hamlet was facing his challenges and choices (to be or not to be...), Shakespeare already knew how it was going to end...

The destiny of Ea was presented to Ainur as the Music, which they were able to enrich, developing the theme given by Eru; Melkor even succeeded to bring in a theme of his own, which contradicted the main one, and subsequently, caused a discord. It all finished, however, on Eru's terms: Melkor's theme was harmonised with the rest of the Music. Then Ainur were offered a chance to see the music they created embodied in a Universe (Ea) and even participate in its creation, development and demise (and what is music if not a well-temered time? ).

Now we have a string of questions:

How did Ainur, Melkor and Sauron in particular, understand the meaning of the Music?
What kind of idea of Eru did they possess?

What I mean is: did Melkor seriously think he was able to amend the providence, i. e. to re-write the future (the future, that was as present for Eru as all other moments in Time)? Or did he come to a conclusion that his theme was the destiny of Ea, that the latter should be shaped accordingly, that the final harmony means only that voices of other Ainur should yield to his tunes?

What I think is that if he ever had an intention to destroy Arda completely, he had not gained it until the very late stage of his fight. It seems, he wanted to re-shape Arda according to his plan (we don't know what it was) and struggled to remove all obstacles (including Ea's existing constitution if necessary).

I wonder what Sauron could think about the Music. I don't believe he could ever forget it as it must have made the most profound impression on his soul ever. Thus, Melkor needed to work hard to persuade Sauron that his (Melkor's) plan can bore a fruit. It is also very difficult to accept that Sauron could believe that Eru literarily abandoned Ea: Eru's nature doesn't simply allow him to abandon anything that does exist. Either Sauron had a very faulty idea of Eru or he believed that taking responsibility for Middle Earth is The Way - something that Eru would approve or at list tolerate. At least during his brief repentance, if it was a sincere move.

Finally, the situation seduces me to make one more comparison. If Tolkien is "Eru" of his universe, we, readers, resemble children of Eru (men), who live a short but bright life (reading The Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings) and then are taken to Eru to listen to his music and learn the truth about Ea that lies beyond our ordinary experience (reading Silmarillon). And I like this thought

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

When he found that other Valar were reluctant to take reigns in ME, could he treat that attitude as a confirmation of their failure? May be he even had a hope that taking responsibility for the affairs of ME and ordering he could deserve Eru's respect in the future?

If we imagine Sauron's worldview as being that the worthiest cause and highest moral responsibility was the implementation and maintenance of order then I agree that we could read Sauron as seeing the Valar as equivalent failures for their refusal to bring order to Middle-earth, instead in fact leaving Men to the depredations of Morgoth's scattered servants.
As for Eru's respect, however, I don't think that by this point (especially following Morgoth's defeat) Sauron was devoted to any being but himself, and any cause but his own obsession with order. I think Eru would be too abstracted and uninvolved to hold any further interest to him. He might even represent everything Sauron was opposed to, which is to say letting things take their natural course (and although he must not have realised it, still intervening, but subtly). The only inconsistency is the destruction of Númenor, but this seemed to Sauron, apparently, to be Eru's last act of dismissal towards his "failed" creation. Sauron judged all decisions, in Gandalf's words, "according to his wisdom," which is to say what he would have done in the same situation, so we shouldn't be surprised at Sauron's ability to rule Eru out of his equations, something only a mind as corrupt as his could do.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The Valar did nothing but fail. They brought the Firstborn to Valinor, leaving Men all alone to be brainwashed by Morgoth, they allowed most of the Noldor to leave Valinor and get themselves slaughtered, and when they finally did take action most of the greatest Elves and Men ever were already dead and what they all were trying to save was destroyed.

Interestingly there are responses to this in "Myths Transformed" where Professor Tolkien describes Manwë as "the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda" with the argument that "the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually beseiged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction."
I think the Valar definitely made mistakes (bringing the Eldar to Aman may have been one of them; Ulmo thought so) and as a result they were forced to compromise. The only alternative (direct action) might have risked Arda itself being destroyed.

[Nikkolas]

The most interesting and telling quote for me in the entire Silmarillion is whn Eru addressed the Ainur and Melkor specifically:
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

I've often wondered if Morgoth or Sauron remembered or forgot this. The fact is, all the evil committed by either Melkor or Sauron through all the Ages was just part of Eru's Plan.

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

I don't give either Morgoth or Sauron any credit for their actions ultimately working for the will of the One. Gollum too served a noble purpose, but never with good intentions. Sauron couldn't claim any ignorance of the consequences of his deeds after watching his master brought low in the War of Wrath. The fact that he contemplated repentance at that point clearly indicates an understanding of his own culpability in Morgoth's evil. But he turned his back on the chance, and decided to take the same road as Morgoth.

[Erestor]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The most interesting and telling quote for me in the entire Silmarillion is whn Eru addressed the Ainur and Melkor specifically:
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

I've often wondered if Morgoth or Sauron remembered or forgot this. The fact is, all the evil committed by either Melkor or Sauron through all the Ages was just part of Eru's Plan.

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

I don’t think that Sauron would've used that knowledge in such a way. After all, he thought Eru had left Arda, and that’s why he didn’t fear his intervention. If he deluded himself to think he was doing the right thing, he wouldn’t need to fear Eru, or think that way. Also, he inherited at least some of Morgoth's hatred of Eru (according to Morgoth's Ring). I rather think he would distance himself from such views. Even when he acted like an emissary from the Valar in Eregion to help the Elves to forge the Rings, he wouldn't do it in such ways, but would really appear as a good being.

I think that view would be more like Gandalf’s, if he would become Ring-Lord. From Letter 246.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.'

That is, if he still had all his knowledge from before his embodiment. I’ve always wondered about this certain passage from UT, which gives me the impression they had lost part of their knowledge.

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.

[Alfirin]

I've always sort of assumed that Galadriel would also have become the "other type" (Gandalf's) of Ringlord, a being who while still objectively "good" would be terrifying because their good would be wholly unalloyed and hence, devoid of those things that come from the knowledge that we all have a little wrong in us, mercy, pity, and the ability to forgive. Not to mention the neccecary cessation of free will in any form (if you are wholly good, you can't allow the existance of evil and as long as there is free will and choice, people have the ability to choose wickedness.) Her kingdom would be one of light, but it would be the kind of light you get by staring directly into the sun, too stong to endure. She would be the LITERAL "Belle de sans merci", and as she said, all would "love her and despair" (though I suspect the "love" would not last too long, you cannot truly love that which you are terrified of.) As the old saying goes "In the mirror of perfection, all beings look wholly vile."

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I've always sort of assumed that Galadriel would also have become the "other type" (Gandalf's) of Ringlord, a being who while still objectively "good" would be terrifying because their good would be wholly unalloyed and hence, devoid of those things that come from the knowledge that we all have a little wrong in us, mercy, pity, and the ability to forgive. Not to mention the neccecary cessation of free will in any form (if you are wholly good, you can't allow the existance of evil and as long as there is free will and choice, people have the ability to choose wickedness.) Her kingdom would be one of light, but it would be the kind of light you get by staring directly into the sun, too stong to endure. She would be the LITERAL "Belle de sans merci", and as she said, all would "love her and despair" (though I suspect the "love" would not last too long, you cannot truly love that which you are terrified of.) As the old saying goes "In the mirror of perfection, all beings look wholly vile."

What an excellent distinction between an accomplished Nazi regime and a Communist one!