house of hurin of emyn arnen revisited

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

As we can see his house was undoubtedly pretty pure, but purity does not remain exclusive to the house of the Kings. Pure Númenóreans can be outside the house of the Kings. However, it seems not only were they a pure house of Dúnedain, they were at some point in time attached to the line of Anárion. Faramir does contradict the other text it would seem in claiming to not be of Elendil's line, but perhaps this is meant only in the sense of not in any line of succession, rather than in descent.

Unless no King of Gondor ever had more than a single son, or any daughters- which seems very unlikely, low birthrate or not- I think we can assume they (and, therefore, Elendil) had descendants outside the direct line. That's how it works in the real world, anyway.

I believe Tolkien understood this- c.f. the passage about how "no male descendants of clear title (or nearly pure blood) of Elendil could be found". Note the qualifications: he's not saying they couldn't find any at all, just none with a good enough claim.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Unless no King of Gondor ever had more than a single son, or any daughters- which seems very unlikely, low birthrate or not- I think we can assume they (and, therefore, Elendil) had descendants outside the direct line. That's how it works in the real world, anyway.

I believe Tolkien understood this- c.f. the passage about how "no male descendants of clear title (or nearly pure blood) of Elendil could be found". Note the qualifications: he's not saying they couldn't find any at all, just none with a good enough claim.

The problem is that branches of the family would then marry back into the main line. Things like the Civil War would have decimated the line of Elendil. Just look at the effect the War of the Roses had on House Plantagenet (though of course half of England is still descendant from them, but through illegitimate lines). The Line of the Black Prince and Henry IV were wiped out.

As you said there were other descendants of Elendil, but they were likely in conflict over the throne. In such a situation it would be best to pick somebody with no claim.

That being said I am sure the later Stewards of Gondor would be descendants of Elendil. I find it extremely unlikely the Princes of Dol Amroth had not intermarried with the royal family.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's entirely possible that the House of Hurin was descended from one or more royal princesses, but one gets the decided impression that in the Realms in Exile (unlike Numenor) the royal succession was Salic.

OTOH, there are the implications of "pure enough blood," as if there was some notion that descendents of Elendil and of "lesser" Men were somehow tainted and ineligible, a rather distasteful position, IMO, and the sort of thing which has (wrongly) associated JRRT in some minds with white supremacists and neo-Nazis.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's entirely possible that the House of Hurin was descended from one or more royal princesses, but one gets the decided impression that in the Realms in Exile (unlike Numenor) the royal succession was Salic.

Well in times of war it is understandable want a military leader to be your king. A man even with the elves was more likely to be a fighter. Pelandur does claim that Gondor and even Arnor have Salic succession. I am not sure if this was true, but by saying that he would have removed any claim his House had to the throne.

The thing is we are told after the Civil War many of the Great Houses are wiped out completely. Even after the House of Hurin have ruled Gondor for around a thousand years, they are not even the second greatest House (after the Princes of Dol Amroth). In fact from Aragorn's words I get the impression there were a few Houses still in higher esteem. This leads me to believe that until later years they were not descendants of Elendil.

OTOH, there are the implications of "pure enough blood," as if there was some notion that descendents of Elendil and of "lesser" Men were somehow tainted and ineligible, a rather distasteful position, IMO, and the sort of thing which has (wrongly) associated JRRT in some minds with white supremacists and neo-Nazis.

I think it's certain that some of the Gondor nobility believed in blood supremacy. The whole reason the Civil War happens, is because they did not want a King with mixed ancestry. I am sure certain parties would be determined to stop anyone of 'lesser blood' inherit the throne.

This is not Tolkien's view though. His only distinction for High Men and Low Men is their relationship with the elves.