Elven Characteristics

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

@Galin: Oh no, now I'm even more confused! I always imagined elves taller than humans. So actually we do not know what Tolkien thought towards the end of his life, and even that would have been transitory. I guess I'll just go with my own imagination. Thank you!

Oh I didn't mean that we don't have much later, general descriptions from JRRT, just that The Book of Lost Tales is rather early stuff.

In '1968 or later', according to a text called Of Dwarves And Men we have:

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

However another description reads:

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107, entry 'a tall Elf'

Anyway, both texts are late. Another (seemingly) late note says that Celeborn was held by the Lindar of Valinor to be tall: '... but the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.' (this note is mentioned in the same section as the following on Galadriel). In yet another late note (Appendix, Numenorean Linear Measures, Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is noted as six foot four. And in The Lord of the Rings it was said concerning Galadriel and Celeborn: 'Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord;...'

There is also (now) variant text concerning Elendil the Tall -- well, I consider it variant from Unfinished Tales anyway. 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

longer version...

'the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter, (say 6 ft. 4).'

Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford

That's not meant to include every reference, nor am I certain that every reference was written with the same conception in mind.

But there's some relatively late citations; and much later than The Book of Lost Tales anyway

[Galin]

Didn't see your post earlier Nerwen, but yes you are correct about what I meant.

[Lissë]

Thank you so much

[Galin]

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

And...

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:





And...




Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

They are harmonious for me. In the first statement it is more about the average height being close to 7ft. So you would expect quite a few Noldor to be shorter than this and as we know quite a few much taller.

The second statement is more concerned with a minimum height. It seems if in general the shortest of the Noldor were 6'6 then the average height would likely be close to 7ft.

The only trouble with this is the description of Celeborn. Let'say that Celeborn indeed was tall for a Sindarin. Let's even allow for him to be a couple of inches taller than Galadriel at 6'6. It would mean that there was such a big difference in stature between the two that a Celeborn whilst very tall for a Sindar would still be one of the shorter Noldor.

[Galin]

The second statement is more concerned with a minimum height.

I might agree except that the second statement adds that 'some' of the great kings and leaders were taller... taller than what? The only reference number here is 6 foot 6, and as one could reasonably expect some Elves to be taller than 6 foot 6, that leads me to think that Tolkien means 'some' of the great kings and leaders were notably taller than 6 foot 6...

... but to me that doesn't seem to mesh well with the other statement, in which it is generally noted that the Eldar and especially the Noldor were normally about 7 feet tall...

... as that's notably taller than the reference number in the other quote [a half a foot taller], and there it's not 'some' great kings and leaders, it's the normal height of the Eldar in general, a rather sweeping reference, even if we have more Noldor with 'especially'.

That's why I tend to think Tolkien may be working with different ideas in the two, noting also that in a text likewise written in reaction to artwork by Pauline Baynes [which thus can be paired with the 6 foot 6 quote], Elendil appears reduced [if compared to the 'rangar' description in Unfinished Tales anyway] from being nearly 8 feet tall to a 'mere' 7 feet tall.

Tolkien might have 'realized' for Thingol [and possibly other great Elves] to have been taller than Elendil he might have to shorten the conceptions up just a bit.

[Dulgakhôr]

Professor gives a bit about elven appearance in "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (published in "Morgoth's ring (HoME 10)). In this he states that childrens of Men and Eldar seems alike in spirit (untainted by evil of the world and burden of memories), but...

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years.

I guess you can fish out few more such pieces in Tolkien notes, but its extremely unlikely he left a more detailed description of physiology- it was simply not very important to him, and some fans found this frustrating:

"It seemed to men that Sauron was great, though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil." (The Lost Road p. 67)
Thank you, Professor. And what did you say the color of his hair was?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I might agree except that the second statement adds that 'some' of the great kings and leaders were taller... taller than what? The only reference number here is 6 foot 6, and as one could reasonably expect some Elves to be taller than 6 foot 6, that leads me to think that Tolkien means 'some' of the great kings and leaders were notably taller than 6 foot 6...

'Some' of the great kings were taller than the average, which is not noted here. In other passages we learn that the average height was 7ft.

The passage in my opinion could be read like this.

'The minimum height for elvish males was 6'6. The minimum height for elvish women was 6'0. Some of the nobility were even taller than the normal height though'

In other passages we learn that the normal height was close to 7ft.

... but to me that doesn't seem to mesh well with the other statement, in which it is generally noted that the Eldar and especially the Noldor were normally about 7 feet tall...

... as that's notably taller than the reference number in the other quote [a half a foot taller], and there it's not 'some' great kings and leaders, it's the normal height of the Eldar in general, a rather sweeping reference, even if we have more Noldor with 'especially'.

That's why I tend to think Tolkien may be working with different ideas in the two, noting also that in a text likewise written in reaction to artwork by Pauline Baynes [which thus can be paired with the 6 foot 6 quote], Elendil appears reduced [if compared to the 'rangar' description in Unfinished Tales anyway] from being nearly 8 feet tall to a 'mere' 7 feet tall.

Tolkien might have 'realized' for Thingol [and possibly other great Elves] to have been taller than Elendil he might have to shorten the conceptions up just a bit.

I think you are making too much of an effort to make the statements contradict each other. As things stand the later works are all in agreement.

Elendil's height is not reduced in anyway. In the Unfinished Tales he gave us an accurate exact height for Elendil being around 7'10. In notes elsewhere he generalised that Isildur and Elendil had been 7ft. The statements once more are not contradictory unless you want them to be.

When I say a rugby team was full of 6 footers, I don't mean that everyone in the team was exactly 6 ft. I mean that everyone was at least 6ft.

Unless the information contradicts itself I see no reason to not accept the harmonious version.

Minimum height for most Noldor 6'6.
Average height for most Noldor under 7ft
Great Lords like Turgon 7ft+.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:





And...




Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

For me both sentences easily agree with each-other. In the second one he was talking about how rare was for their women to be less than 6' and immediately after that he states that their man are NO LESS than 6'6'', so it's pretty consistent the fact that he wasn't talking about an average(there is also no mention of that). The sentence is definitely more concerned into giving us a minimum height.
Kings and leaders were taller than the average (which isn't mentioned).
Supposing that 6'6'' is the full-grown elfmen average height is the same of saying that their woman average is also probably very close to 6'6'' and grammatically the semicolon";" is giving us an "antithesis" and also Tolkien never states that their woman were as tall as their man with only exceptions like Galadriel being as tall as Celeborn.

[Galin]

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.