Elven Characteristics

[Lissë]

Thank you so much

[Galin]

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

And...

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:





And...




Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

They are harmonious for me. In the first statement it is more about the average height being close to 7ft. So you would expect quite a few Noldor to be shorter than this and as we know quite a few much taller.

The second statement is more concerned with a minimum height. It seems if in general the shortest of the Noldor were 6'6 then the average height would likely be close to 7ft.

The only trouble with this is the description of Celeborn. Let'say that Celeborn indeed was tall for a Sindarin. Let's even allow for him to be a couple of inches taller than Galadriel at 6'6. It would mean that there was such a big difference in stature between the two that a Celeborn whilst very tall for a Sindar would still be one of the shorter Noldor.

[Galin]

The second statement is more concerned with a minimum height.

I might agree except that the second statement adds that 'some' of the great kings and leaders were taller... taller than what? The only reference number here is 6 foot 6, and as one could reasonably expect some Elves to be taller than 6 foot 6, that leads me to think that Tolkien means 'some' of the great kings and leaders were notably taller than 6 foot 6...

... but to me that doesn't seem to mesh well with the other statement, in which it is generally noted that the Eldar and especially the Noldor were normally about 7 feet tall...

... as that's notably taller than the reference number in the other quote [a half a foot taller], and there it's not 'some' great kings and leaders, it's the normal height of the Eldar in general, a rather sweeping reference, even if we have more Noldor with 'especially'.

That's why I tend to think Tolkien may be working with different ideas in the two, noting also that in a text likewise written in reaction to artwork by Pauline Baynes [which thus can be paired with the 6 foot 6 quote], Elendil appears reduced [if compared to the 'rangar' description in Unfinished Tales anyway] from being nearly 8 feet tall to a 'mere' 7 feet tall.

Tolkien might have 'realized' for Thingol [and possibly other great Elves] to have been taller than Elendil he might have to shorten the conceptions up just a bit.

[Dulgakhôr]

Professor gives a bit about elven appearance in "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (published in "Morgoth's ring (HoME 10)). In this he states that childrens of Men and Eldar seems alike in spirit (untainted by evil of the world and burden of memories), but...

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years.

I guess you can fish out few more such pieces in Tolkien notes, but its extremely unlikely he left a more detailed description of physiology- it was simply not very important to him, and some fans found this frustrating:

"It seemed to men that Sauron was great, though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil." (The Lost Road p. 67)
Thank you, Professor. And what did you say the color of his hair was?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Dulgakhôr

I guess you can fish out few more such pieces in Tolkien notes, but its extremely unlikely he left a more detailed description of physiology- it was simply not very important to him, and some fans found this frustrating:

In Tolkien's defense though, he did get pretty detailed at times on both persons and places; he just was selective on the things on which he chose to elaborate.

I personally have never been overly concerned with the sometime lack of information on personal appearances. Imagination is a large piece of what makes reading enjoyable to me. I don't want to know everything.

And by the way, welcome to the Downs!

[Galin]

Here's one that not only helps with Elwe, but describes some characteristics of the Noldor and Sindar. I break the text to add a paragraph here.

'Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan).

In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.'

Quendi and Eldar, War of the Jewels

From the same text we know that though the Vanyar were the smallest clan [at least early on], they were 'mostly' golden or yellow-haired. I can't really find any late references to how tall they were in comparison to Men, or to other Elves, although maybe I'm missing something there.


I have found a number of general references to hair colour and tallness, but not for example, to hair style [see the thread 'hairy-pottering' for instance], except a few when in reference to a particular Elf. Tolkien even introduced red, or red-brown [or coppery coloured] hair among Nerdanel's kin, and at least a couple of references to a 'ruddy' complexion. JRRT even altered some of the names of Feanor's sons to match up with this new hair colour detail [which has caused a fair amount of confusion or at least conflation on the web in my opinion]...

... but anyway Tolkien still leaves plenty to the imagination I think.


And there is yet again the matter of external chronology. For another example, the text on Elven children from Morgoth's Ring might have been superseded by later description that appears to indicate Men and Elves grew to adulthood at basically the same rate. Laws And Customs is a relatively late text too, but JRRT could take even a long held idea and 'suddenly' discard it, as he did with the mode of Elven reincarnation for example [in other words he revised the mode in which Elves are reincarnated, not the fact that they were reincarnated].

For some time [which might not be not much longer than the time it took to write the text itself] JRRT even mused on changing the meaning of the term Noldor to refer to hair colour!

But then he went back to having it mean 'Those who know'

For another instance, in one text [see Words, Phrases, and Passages in Parma Eldalamberon] Tolkien writes that no Elf had absolutely black hair, but in a later text he simply uses the word 'black' when describing the hair of certain Elves.

We might keep in mind that JRRT was certainly free enough to change his mind if something had not already been published. Sometimes his changing ideas can be confusing, but he didn't know that so much of his texts and notes would someday be so available to his readership.

What's the interweb? For example

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I might agree except that the second statement adds that 'some' of the great kings and leaders were taller... taller than what? The only reference number here is 6 foot 6, and as one could reasonably expect some Elves to be taller than 6 foot 6, that leads me to think that Tolkien means 'some' of the great kings and leaders were notably taller than 6 foot 6...

'Some' of the great kings were taller than the average, which is not noted here. In other passages we learn that the average height was 7ft.

The passage in my opinion could be read like this.

'The minimum height for elvish males was 6'6. The minimum height for elvish women was 6'0. Some of the nobility were even taller than the normal height though'

In other passages we learn that the normal height was close to 7ft.

... but to me that doesn't seem to mesh well with the other statement, in which it is generally noted that the Eldar and especially the Noldor were normally about 7 feet tall...

... as that's notably taller than the reference number in the other quote [a half a foot taller], and there it's not 'some' great kings and leaders, it's the normal height of the Eldar in general, a rather sweeping reference, even if we have more Noldor with 'especially'.

That's why I tend to think Tolkien may be working with different ideas in the two, noting also that in a text likewise written in reaction to artwork by Pauline Baynes [which thus can be paired with the 6 foot 6 quote], Elendil appears reduced [if compared to the 'rangar' description in Unfinished Tales anyway] from being nearly 8 feet tall to a 'mere' 7 feet tall.

Tolkien might have 'realized' for Thingol [and possibly other great Elves] to have been taller than Elendil he might have to shorten the conceptions up just a bit.

I think you are making too much of an effort to make the statements contradict each other. As things stand the later works are all in agreement.

Elendil's height is not reduced in anyway. In the Unfinished Tales he gave us an accurate exact height for Elendil being around 7'10. In notes elsewhere he generalised that Isildur and Elendil had been 7ft. The statements once more are not contradictory unless you want them to be.

When I say a rugby team was full of 6 footers, I don't mean that everyone in the team was exactly 6 ft. I mean that everyone was at least 6ft.

Unless the information contradicts itself I see no reason to not accept the harmonious version.

Minimum height for most Noldor 6'6.
Average height for most Noldor under 7ft
Great Lords like Turgon 7ft+.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think you are making too much of an effort to make the statements contradict each other. As things stand the later works are all in agreement.

Well I could say something similar concerning your opinions For example...

Elendil's height is not reduced in anyway. In the Unfinished Tales he gave us an accurate exact height for Elendil being around 7'10. In notes elsewhere he generalised that Isildur and Elendil had been 7ft. The statements once more are not contradictory unless you want them to be.

... why assume the 7 foot reference is not accurate? I could say the statements are not in accord unless you want Tolkien to be speaking so generally that when he writes 7 feet for both Isildur and Elendil he really imagines Elendil 10 inches taller [!], with the reason to think so being some description he may not have even remembered at the time, or may have been purposely revising.

There is no indication in the passage concerned that Elendil is taller than 7 feet. And I note Hammond and Scull's presentation of the two accounts in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings [see Numenoreans in the index, the first reference here is to the 'rangar account' published posthumously in Unfinished Tales]:

'Thus Elendil, by this account, was apparently almost eight feet tall. But in another late, unpublished note Tolkien wrote that...'

And then they quote the seven feet tall description. Well, when I note a given idea and then plan to introduce a seeming contradiction, or at least a reasonably arguable one, I use 'but, however' as well.

When I say a rugby team was full of 6 footers, I don't mean that everyone in the team was exactly 6 ft. I mean that everyone was at least 6ft.

And in my interpretation of Tolkien's reaction to the artwork of Pauline Baynes I do not say, of course, that Tolkien meant every Elda was exactly 6 foot 6.

Unless the information contradicts itself I see no reason to not accept the harmonious version.

(...) 'Some' of the great kings were taller than the average, which is not noted here. In other passages we learn that the average height was 7ft.

That's not what Tolkien wrote in any case, in the passage I interpreted above.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well I could say something similar concerning your opinions For example...



... why assume the 7 foot reference is not accurate? I could say the statements are not in accord unless you want Tolkien to be speaking so generally that when he writes 7 feet for both Isildur and Elendil he really imagines Elendil 10 inches taller [!], with the reason to think so being some description he may not have even remembered at the time, or may have been purposely revising.

There is no indication in the passage concerned that Elendil is taller than 7 feet. And I note Hammond and Scull's presentation of the two accounts in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings [see Numenoreans in the index, the first reference here is to the 'rangar account' published posthumously in Unfinished Tales]:

My first point is that when people use a generic 6ft and in this case 7ft it is rarely to be taken as an accurate reference, especially when talking about two people. In this very case we know Isildur and Elendil were different heights, because Elendil is mentioned as the tallest man to have survived the downfall of Numenor. Secondly we know the Hobbits are called Halflings, because they were roughly half the size of Numenoreans. If the average height of the Nuemnoreans was 7ft then how could Elendil gain the nickname the Elendil the tall if he was 7ft too?

In one place he makes a rough note about a picture on general height. In the other he gives an exact height, supported by other published material.

And then they quote the seven feet tall description. Well, when I note a given idea and then plan to introduce a seeming contradiction, or at least a reasonably arguable one, I use 'but, however' as well.

And in my interpretation of Tolkien's reaction to the artwork of Pauline Baynes I do not say, of course, that Tolkien meant every Elda was exactly 6 foot 6.

I was talking about Elendil and Isildur both being 7ft, when the context and evidence we have from other sources shows this must be a general description.

Tolkien never in that paragraph describes 6'6 as being a standard or even an average height. It's a general minimum height.

That's not what Tolkien wrote in any case, in the passage I interpreted above.

In the paragraph quoted, Tolkien is not talking about an average height for Eldar men and women.

He first gives the general minimum height for women, which is 6'0. No where is it indicated that the average for a male is 6'6.

In more than one account Tolkien goes into detail about the Numenoreans being around 7ft tall on average.

the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was a Numenorean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Numenorean men and was approximately accurate when given.-UT


but he (Elendil) was said to be 'more than man-high' by nearly half a ranga; but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the downfall [and indeed was generally known as the tall]

Earlier he tells us that 6'4 was not really an average height for Numenoreans, but a general term and even this was after they had declined in height.

We have a lot of accurate measurements of height given and I don't see why we should dismiss it all for an ambiguous note, which can be read in different ways.

[Nerwen]

Just as a clarification- by "your original contention", I mean this:

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think you are making too much of an effort to make the statements contradict each other. As things stand the later works are all in agreement.

Elendil's height is not reduced in anyway. In the Unfinished Tales he gave us an accurate exact height for Elendil being around 7'10. In notes elsewhere he generalised that Isildur and Elendil had been 7ft. The statements once more are not contradictory unless you want them to be.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:





And...




Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

For me both sentences easily agree with each-other. In the second one he was talking about how rare was for their women to be less than 6' and immediately after that he states that their man are NO LESS than 6'6'', so it's pretty consistent the fact that he wasn't talking about an average(there is also no mention of that). The sentence is definitely more concerned into giving us a minimum height.
Kings and leaders were taller than the average (which isn't mentioned).
Supposing that 6'6'' is the full-grown elfmen average height is the same of saying that their woman average is also probably very close to 6'6'' and grammatically the semicolon";" is giving us an "antithesis" and also Tolkien never states that their woman were as tall as their man with only exceptions like Galadriel being as tall as Celeborn.

[Galin]

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

[Nerwen]

To clarify: I'm making a guess here at what Tolkien was *trying* to say- the problem is that, taken literally, that second passage doesn't really add up at all. So I'm assuming he just hadn't thought it all out in terms of normal distribution etc. Or else he was just using stock phrases, and the statement that Elf-men were "no less than six and a half feet" is to be taken in the same sense as the preceding one that "their women were seldom less than six feet in height"; that is, a rough indication of normal height rather than a lower limit. This would explain how only "some of the great kings and leaders" were taller than this (apparent) bare minimum.

Again, though the phrasing is ambiguous enough that it's hard to be sure exactly what he did mean.

[Galin]

Yes Nerwen, you understood my question exactly.

And I agree, although you phrased it all better than I usually do. Thanks!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

To clarify: I'm making a guess here at what Tolkien was *trying* to say- the problem is that, taken literally, that second passage doesn't really add up at all. So I'm assuming he just hadn't thought it all out in terms of normal distribution etc. Or else he was just using stock phrases, and the statement that Elf-men were "no less than six and a half feet" is to be taken in the same sense as the preceding one that "their women were seldom less than six feet in height"; that is, a rough indication of normal height rather than a lower limit. This would explain how only "some of the great kings and leaders" were taller than this (apparent) bare minimum.

Again, though the phrasing is ambiguous enough that it's hard to be sure exactly what he did mean.

The sentence would just be like this by what you're saying:
'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.' - You see, now what you said makes perfectly sense.
In shorter if you ignore "seldom less" and "No less" you are correct but if you add that to the sentence so she changes her meaning. So why do laps in the sentence to make her meaning the same as the reconstructed sentence I made???

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

Why would he say that most of them are taller than 6'6'' if he just said that they are no less than 6'6''?? that means the same thing. I will repeat there is no average statement being said in this sentence, their kings and leaders are taller than the average that it's not said. That doesn't sound like a revision at all, Elendil's height certainly does although. Look how I explained grammatically in my commentary above. And why pretend that Tolkien wasn't talking about a minimum height when he say "No less" and "seldom less"?
Exactly!!! I think there is no need to keep jumping through mental hoops you can simply look at their minimum and try to imagine their average.
Why wouldn't Tolkien be thinking about an average close to 7' if he stated that 6'6'' is the minimum? And that doesn't necessarily means that this is a revision since in "Dwarves and Men" they were talking about Hobbits and in this sentence he was strictly talking about the Eldar.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

, he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

That's why I'm saying that there isn't a revision at all. And tell me where is the difference between saying that a group of people is taller than 6'6'' and saying that the minimum height of that group is 6'6''? - both of them means they are taller than 6'6''.