Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

[Ivriniel]

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North. I suspect they took wives who were of the Dunedain and fortified the longevity of the Numenereans in Exile in the Fourth Age.

Dior, as I remember, was also not someone who had the life of the Eldar. Luthien chose a mortal life, which is a slight variation on the way the mythology puts the Choice of the Peredhil (Half Elven). Dior being Luthien's and Beren's son cannot claim an immortal life in that context. However, I also recall that Luthien's end was prior to the War of Wrath at the end of the first age. The Choice of the Peredhil was put together by the Valar, formerly, after Earendil in Vingilot made it into the Uttermost West and pleaded with the Valar to render aid. Earendil's plea was successful, but something else came of it, which was his immortality, which to that point, had no precedent (again, Luthien perished, having relinquished her heritage, somehow). I also seem to remember that Earendil was actually somewhat reluctant to take on the Life of the Eldar, but did so for Elwing's sake and by her plea to her husband. He certainly has a very boring life, I would say, rising day after day, in Vingilot, as the Evenstar, and as he must until the fulfilment of the Second Prophesy when Melkor returns through the Doors of Night. I'm not sure I would want to live that way!

Cheers
Ivriniel

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North.

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

The problem I have with the twins remaining is that ever time an Elf/Halfelven/Man has changed their fate it has been for a great and high destiny. It is not something, which happens on a whim. I know that technically the children of Elrond were not changing their fate, but they had lived a long time with the life of the Eldar.

I don't see the Sons of Elrond changing the state they had been living unless it was for a great and history changing event.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

[Ivriniel]

@Celludur

That's an interesting take to put it as about 'changing fates/destinies'. I see where you're going.

@all

We only actually have one union of Elves and Men--after--The Choice of the Peredhil was formalised at that ring of meeting place thing in Valinor (it's got a particular name, and that was where Earendil pleaded to the Valar, while Elwing sat in the getaway car, waiting for hubby to return--it's a beautiful story though--Elwing throwing herself into the seas and Ulmo bearing her up and transforming her into a swan as she flew in the night with the Silmaril back to Earendil, who caught her, and she awoke, in the morning herself again). The one union is Aragorn and Arwen.

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil. Somewhere I read that there were only ever 'three unions of Elves and Men'--Tuor/Idril--though Earendil wedded Elwing who was Dior's kid; Beren/Luthien, and Aragorn/Arwen, which is not really reconcilable with what we know of Imrahil's people and Dol Amroth (even the name of the region recognises the Elvish heritage, where Amroth came from the then Lorien, before Galadriel and Celeborn took over leadership of the realm).

Also, we know that Imrahil son of Adrahil II was born in 2955 TA, and Denethor II married Imrahil's sister, Finduilas (a latter-named Finduilas; also my avatar is another sister of Imrahil), and so Imrahil is Boromir's and Faramir's uncle. This implies there is Elvish blood in that line, which is news to me (I just read this) but we did know Faramir was of particularly 'fair' bearing.

I believe this is not quite true.

[Belegorn]

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil.

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

Yes. And I agree as I say. I only meant that Elrond doesn't put it as specifically as we do... but of course he needs to speak 'in the tale' and need hardly say something like...

'... and by that I mean they must depart when I go, that is, on the very same ship or in the same year at least...'

Or something

Another statement in Appendix A goes something like depart 'with' him, but some seem to interpret that to mean that the Sons can leave after Elrond sailed, but will be 'with' him in a broader sense, and can still chose an Elvish fate [as Tolkien seems to suggest in a letter].

Again I rather think the more natural suggestion is as you [we] have said. And Robert Foster seems to agree [in his guide to Middle-earth] -- and the point there is, he was not letting 'that letter' influence his interpretation of the story.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

And yet I remember clearly that somewhere in the Appendices a commentary (I think by Merry, written during the early period of the 4th Age) states of Cirdan : " .... and some say he dwells there still", meaning the Havens.