Elves and Ringwraiths

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)

"His name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it."
I do not believe that the Mouth of Sauron was particularly ancient. We are only told that he had forgotten his own name, not that he had forgotten it due to age. In the same way I believe that Gothmog was a Man and not a Wraith. I associate him with the Morgul-riders who emerged from the Dead City with the Black Captain as witnessed by Frodo and Sam.

Khamûl was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. He seemingly no longer had any affiliation with the Easterlings by the end of the Third Age. In the same way I think we needn't find confusion in the idea of other Wraiths no longer leading their former realms to battle. The Lord of the Nazgûl was King of Angmar and Lord of Morgul in his time: he did not persist in a specifically Black Númenórean connection.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

[Inziladun]

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

There really is no definitive answer, but the conjecture is ominously fun.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Inziladun:

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master.

I've recently come to believe (with no textual proof whatsoever) that the Mouth of Sauron was given one of Rings that Sauron recovered from the dwarves. He simply hasn't had it long enough for it to have completely taken over his entire being. He's "part-way" to becoming a Nazgul. This would account for both a longer life, (long enough to have forgotten his own name.) and his ability to speak for Sauron autonomously. I can't prove it, though, obviously.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

I'm sure you're right. I suspect that Tolkien, had he been alive and bombarded by fans asking a ka-gillion questions about a mythology with several billion offshoot items mentioned and left tacit, that he may have answered the questions about the fates of the Nazgul.

I want to know what kinds of dreams they started having, what they did when they put their Rings on, how their habits and personalities started changing and also, what happened to their Spirits, bodies and flesh. Did Mandos accept them? Where do Wraiths go in the cosmology when they 'die' or end?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

Hey there Morthoron,

I take your point in the flow of logic, inference, even of intrigue in the discussion about the Mouth of Sauron. I haven't traced and researched my materials about Black Numenoereans--ever--as a detailed, particular delve, but have read what materials there are on them in UT, and--to the extend I can bear reading some of the other stuff (I just can't get my head around readings where the Noldor are 'gnomes' and Valinor 'Kor')--I have some materials probably in those books.

I'll go and have a look and see what's there. But, off the cuff, as a 'habit' or tendency, Tolkien tended to interweave in LotR, the ideas about the 'fading' years of Middle Earth, but where some small aspect, feature, person or artefact for another time could make an appearance. As, for example, the last of the Elves of Valinor were packing house and catching the Last Bus on the Straight Road line to Elfy places we also had Shadowfax, a re-appearance of the 'nobler' former high horsy things, and 'one or two' Palantiri, the vestiges of the empire of a Numenorean-o-rama. We had an elfy blade or two from the First Age, a Blade or two from Arnor (Barrow Wight treasure), Shelob (a fairly big spider, getting a bit towards Ungoliante), and so on.

The 'Last Black Numenorean'? I dunno. As you say, 2000 years is a long time, and it's not like you ever see a Roman Legion marching down the street.

But, now and then, you do see a throw back to a former time, either culturally or genetically. I suppose, in the spirit of Shadowfax, The Mouth of Sauron could have come from that part of Umbar where there still dwelled an enclave of the equivalent of the Rangers of the North, or a scion of a Noble House, or even the product of a child of a captured Gondorian female Dunedain.....that is, the slave traders would probably have taken people from Gondor for that kind of thing. Perhaps they caught someone from Gondor who had a lot of Numenorean blood?

Ivriniel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I'm still thinking about the implications for having a non-Numenorean ace the Numenorean Ringwraiths (except the Witchking) in power. And what this means about Elves and Ringwraiths in a relative ranking of power.

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

I'm aware this is just a side issue, but I'd like to track down the source (if there is one).

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

Hey there Nerwen

I'm not sure off hand how many of the nine were at the Pelennor, cause I'm rusty about LotR, having not read it for about five years (though another read's on the brew). The only stuff I can find about Khamul (I haven't scanned, widely yet) was in The Hunt for the Ring.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

...someone posted somewhere, upstream, an interesting idea about why Tolkien may [not] have deliberately [not] provided names (sorry about the double negative, but they're needed at times) for the Nazgul, before they were Nazgul. The idea being petitioned was that the anonymising of the Nine made them more frightening to the reader (ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray, coz all those Elendil supporters thought his inverted cross was mean i.e. by identifying with his human -- or once human -- side).

About canonical tomes, I'm sure there's some interesting views about 'which' materials to weight, when pressed, in topical items that have more than one position. Personally, I always retreat to LotR as much as I can, and the Appendices, and love the Silmarillion, but understand its Christopher-ising has caused problems. UT is often helpful. Letters, as supplementary materials for getting at Tolkien's intentions sometimes helps, though there's times I've found that problematic too.

Then, there's a whole bunch of more obscure materials, papers, even journals and Books, I've seen quoted. And high-brow inferential statements about author intention from those. I am enjoying getting into these citations, and have found myself prompted to go delving.....