Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[Belegorn]

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did. I'm not sure who I'd choose from the 2nd Age, maybe I'd give a dual trophy to Gil-galad and Elendil since they wrestled and beat Sauron.

[Morthoron]

Tolkien's editor. A brave man beyond words.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's editor. A brave man beyond words.

Said like a true Mirthoron!

[Pervinca Took]

I agree, Lotrelf. I also think Frodo was just as brave after his quest as during it, and that a substantial part of his decision to sail west was so as not to cast a shadow of illness and death over the lives of his friends. Although I am confident that it was the best decision for himself, too, and that he knew it. It still takes gumption to do something like that. There is an element of a "leap of faith" in the decision to depart for Tol Eressea on a one-way ticket, even, as Tolkien put it, for "someone who had been through Frodo's experiences."

Edit: good point, Morthoron!

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Although I am confident that it was the best decision for himself, too, and that he knew it. It still takes gumption to do something like that. There is an element of a "leap of faith" in the decision to depart for Tol Eressea on a one-way ticket, even, as Tolkien put it, for "someone who had been through Frodo's experiences."

Yes, it was indeed the best thing he could do for himself and those he loved. It gives me a message! Like, in modern society, people "fail" and they wish to end their lives. While they may have another chance too, but they choose to finish it all, and commit suicide. Frodo, OTOH, lives on. He gives himself another chance.
IIRC, Tolkien said that Frodo decided to go across the Sea after his illness in 1420, when farmer Cotton saw him.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did.

Excuse my arrogance, but I don't think we can say Frodo was not strongest of his race/species. Strength doesn't only come from defeating a monster in the world, but defeating a monster inside of us. That's what Frodo did. The latter one, I guess, is tougher.

[Pervinca Took]

LOTRelf, I think it was the illness the March after that one when Tolkien said he finally decided to sail West. The one where Sam was home, but Elanor was being/about to be born, and Frodo managed "with a great effort" to hide his illness.

Fully agree about different kinds of strength. Just because Frodo doesn't get the chance to fight a giant spider, it doesn't mean he wasn't brave enough to (after all, he forces back the eyes with the Phial - Sam reckons the Elves would have made a song about that!) It just wasn't his brief. He had a very strong concept of his duty by the time he and Sam were alone on the Quest. That was to keep going towards the mountain as long as he could, and keep from capture for as long as possible. Painful, hard, agonising, humiliating, not swashbuckling. But brave? Hell, yes.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Excuse my arrogance, but I don't think we can say Frodo was not strongest of his race/species. Strength doesn't only come from defeating a monster in the world, but defeating a monster inside of us. That's what Frodo did. The latter one, I guess, is tougher.

I'd leave room for disagreement on this only because there were Bilbo and Gollum who lived with the Ring much longer than Frodo and obviously used it more often, and there were periods when they were to a great degree not downtrodden at its loss. Gollum for a while when under Frodo's wing while Frodo had the Ring was turning it around, after nearly 500 years with it, and Bilbo actually let it go after about 50-60 years with it.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'd leave room for disagreement on this only because there were Bilbo and Gollum who lived with the Ring much longer than Frodo and obviously used it more often, and there were periods when they were to a great degree not downtrodden at its loss. Gollum for a while when under Frodo's wing while Frodo had the Ring was turning it around, after nearly 500 years with it, and Bilbo actually let it go after about 50-60 years with it.

Frodo was under the pump, relative to Gollum and Bilbo, because Sauron's power had grown, greatly at the time Frodo had the Ring. He also bore it in Mordor and, as was noted in text, the Ring's power grew as it approached the place of its making.

My heroes:

Beren and Luthien. They pulled it off--Sauron's creepy tower, and then Morgoth's throne. She did it for love.

Meriadoc and Eowyn and slaying the Nazgul - I still tear up about that one....some brave shorty and love-crazed ice maiden stand before this thing of maximum creepy and do it in. One for women, and one for short things.

And an *all time* favourite - Silmarien of Andunie, first female in the Line of Elros and keeper of the line of the Faithful

[Mithalwen]

She did it for her own interests, to satisfy her own lust, and got my Finrod killed...she is a villain, the hideous baggage, we hates her, we hates her forever!

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Cirdan. For enduring the longest boring seaside retirement in history.

[cellurdur]

It's hard to compare such things like this, because we all have different capacities. think all we can be expected to do is to do our best. Frodo did that and this is why he was a hero and the ring was destroyed. He gave every last bit of energy he had to destroying the ring. Luthien and Earendil may have been able to destroy it, because they had greater natural talents, but that does not make them any more of a moral hero than Frodo.

In terms of the greatest deed then Luthien and Beren have to be first, because they accomplished the most difficult task. They alone were able to do what the entire army of the Noldor failed to do; take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

[Mithalwen]

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Gotta give a nod to Finrod, who gave up his kingdom and undertook a suicide mission just because he had sworn an oath (and to Beren's father, not even Beren himself); and who, alone among all the Eruhini, dared take on Sauron face-to-face in a contest of magic.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

No they did it to fulfill an oath they made and had many times to turn away. Beren and Luthien had no personal wish to gain a Silmaril. In terms of self sacrifice for the greater good then the obvious stand out examples are Earendil, Frodo and Cirdan.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did. I'm not sure who I'd choose from the 2nd Age, maybe I'd give a dual trophy to Gil-galad and Elendil since they wrestled and beat Sauron.

Second age has to be Gil-galad for me. He doesn't. Fall for Sauron'wiles as annatar, rules wisely and well for an age, builds vital alliances with Numenor then finally does the classic Noldor king dramatic and valiant death.

First age, Finrod, Beleg, Tuor and Idril, Fingolfin


Special mention for Cirdan and Elrond, models of self sacrifice

[Pervinca Took]

For the Second Age, I think I'd maybe choose Amandil. Heartbreaking self-sacrifice.

[Inziladun]

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron. He should have had the assistance of his fellow Wizards, but they were either wandering in the Wild East, playing with the birds, butterflies, and squirrels in Mirkwood, or plotting to rule the world. Gandalf, through all his trials, showed admirable patience, and to me even more importantly, he never lost sight of the end goal, toward which everything he did led.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron.

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

[Mithalwen]

I can see why you might think that but I think Tolkien compared it to the Annunciation and Mary and the sundering of self to the divine will. Of course that may be a retrofitted idea to fit with his "consciously Catholic in the revision" statement.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

He was not "too quick" to volunteer. Or may be he didn't delay, and he should not. If you do not trust his volunteerism as heroic, I'd want you to recall the scene on Seat on Seeing where he sees "visions" and in the end feels Ring's will working on him(the Eye thing) and Gandalf's intervention. Two wills working on him, both of them stronger than his, trying to dominate him. I don't think after this he couldn't say "no" to the quest. He had "excuse". While reading the books we see he has every reason/excuse to give up, but doesn't. He did not complete his journey only because of Sam & Gollum, but because of his own too. For his quest taking because of his attachment to the Ring, I'd like you to read Tolkien's quote:

Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.

I feel, this pretty much answers your question. and when Bilbo could give it up after 60 years, how come Frodo could not give it up after 17 years? Sigh.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

Interesting thought, but I don't concur, because it's said that he felt "an overwhelming desire to rest and stay beside Bilbo's side in Rivendell." I believe he only volunteered because no-one else offered (except Bilbo, who was too old) and he felt it was his duty.

There might be an element of what you mentioned in Bilbo's offer, perhaps ... he had possessed the Ring so long, and desperately wanted to see and hold it again, in that scene in the Hall of Fire.