Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Belegorn]

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

I would think Faramir might be on that Council as well, I've got to check. I'm not sure if the Steward's had their heirs on the the Council or not, certainly I'd think the Lord of Dol Amroth would be there, and maybe even non-Dunedain from other provinces who were the Lords thereof.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

Read what I said again. They rejected his claim on the basis of being Isildur's heir. However, when Arvedui makes the claim as Elendil's heir the council have no reply.

'To this Gondor made no answer'.

The council had no way of refuting this claim, because Elendil was held in such a high regard they would not remove him from the succession. Consequently as long as Elendil was the first king of Gondor then any heir of Elendil would be in the succession.

After this there is never any dispute that Arvedui has a valid claim, but they choose Earnil, who himself admits it was also due to the needs of Gondor and not just a matter of law.

' He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he had received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and NEEDS of the South-Kingdom.

Denethor would not give up the throne, but the Council would be breaking the law by rejecting Aragorn's claim.

[Belegorn]

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

No they had made a false claim, which they could not back up. Arvedui had made his initial claim on two points.
1. Being Isildur's heir.
2. Being the husband of Firiel.

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor as the direct descendant of Isildur and the husband of Firiel the only surviving child of Ondoher.'

The council then reject his claim and give their reasons.

1. They claim that Firiel's claim is not accepted, because in Gondor like Arnor they practice Salic succession.
2. The crown of Gondor belongs to the sons of Meneldil, to whom Isildur relinquished the kingdom.

So falsely they rejected the claim of Isildur's heir based on him having apparently relinquished the kingship of Gondor.

Arvedui, however then goes over the top of this and claim the throne not as Isildur's heir, but Elendil's.

'We have heard that the name Elendil stands to this day at the Head of the Line of Kings of Gondor'

Arvedui here has caught them out on the political manoeuvrings they were trying to carry out. The Throne of Gondor cannot belong solely to the heirs of Anarion, because Gondor to that day still claimed Elendil as their first king. As long as Elendil was their first king then other descendants of Elendil and not just through Meneldil could claim the throne.

His second point about Firiel is also valid. Whilst they had at the time through tradition chosen only male heirs to be king, the Law of Gondor was still theoretically the same as the Law of Numenor. Consequently women did have the right to the throne and nothing had been altered.

[Belegorn]

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".