I think I know why Lobelia S.B. is called Lobelia - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 03-29-2014, 05:04 PM

It's funny that the Bree Hobbits and Men are noted as having "odd" botanical names. Yet, in addition to Lobelia, a glimpse of the Baggins family tree shows Pansy, Lily, Rosa, Poppy, and Peony among the various female names there. Lobelia apparently just had traditionally-minded parents, if that carried through to Shire-families in general.

Mithalwen · 03-29-2014, 06:50 PM

I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women.

Inziladun · 03-29-2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women.

Pffft. You're right, naturally. Next I'll be advancing the theory that Sam is rustic and simple.

shadowfax · 09-02-2014, 07:35 AM

I think Tom Shippey convincingly formulates the theory that Sackville Baggins is a wordplay on cul-de-sac and his general disapproval of using French words to describe things for which there are decent Engish words. Of course cul-de-sac is not even proper French but an anglicised usage of French to appear eduacted or intellectual.

Bag End is thus a literal English translation of cul de sac (bottom of a bag). Ville (before it came to mean town) came from possibly celtic origins denoting a settlement and thus could also loosely mean the same as end does in English place names. Thus sackville is bag end and the name Sackville Baggins is thus a meaningless repetition of the same thing.

Baggins is of course also another wordplay, as Bilbo (or so Gandalf claims) is a burglar (actually a misinterpretation of the term burgher, for a bourgeouis citizen) and a burglar is obviously somebody who steals, or "bags" things. Of couzrse he did end up bagging both the Ring and the arkenstone, and as such proved a good "bagger".

Colloquially, at least to an Oxford don in Tolkien's day, a baggins was also a light meal. And Bilbo was certainly one who liked to tuck into his meals.

Of course Hobb Lane also comes into it. Tolkien obviosuly didn't mind combining several jokes and references into one.

03-29-2014, 05:04 PM	#1
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	It's funny that the Bree Hobbits and Men are noted as having "odd" botanical names. Yet, in addition to Lobelia, a glimpse of the Baggins family tree shows Pansy, Lily, Rosa, Poppy, and Peony among the various female names there. Lobelia apparently just had traditionally-minded parents, if that carried through to Shire-families in general. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-29-2014, 06:50 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-02-2014, 07:35 AM	#4
shadowfax Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 40	I think Tom Shippey convincingly formulates the theory that Sackville Baggins is a wordplay on cul-de-sac and his general disapproval of using French words to describe things for which there are decent Engish words. Of course cul-de-sac is not even proper French but an anglicised usage of French to appear eduacted or intellectual. Bag End is thus a literal English translation of cul de sac (bottom of a bag). Ville (before it came to mean town) came from possibly celtic origins denoting a settlement and thus could also loosely mean the same as end does in English place names. Thus sackville is bag end and the name Sackville Baggins is thus a meaningless repetition of the same thing. Baggins is of course also another wordplay, as Bilbo (or so Gandalf claims) is a burglar (actually a misinterpretation of the term burgher, for a bourgeouis citizen) and a burglar is obviously somebody who steals, or "bags" things. Of couzrse he did end up bagging both the Ring and the arkenstone, and as such proved a good "bagger". Colloquially, at least to an Oxford don in Tolkien's day, a baggins was also a light meal. And Bilbo was certainly one who liked to tuck into his meals. Of course Hobb Lane also comes into it. Tolkien obviosuly didn't mind combining several jokes and references into one. __________________ Visit the Walking Tree Publishers Last edited by shadowfax; 09-02-2014 at 07:39 AM.