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#1 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Quote:
My point is, however, that in my opinion the most likely event in any "Faithful Númenor" scenario seems to be to be a war for the "soul" of Middle-earth, as it were, not unlike the War of the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring, perhaps, but on a vaster scale and potentially far more catastrophic. Given that Sauron's greatest problem at the end of the Second Age was that Gil-Galad had managed to rebuild his military strength during the years of Sauron's absence in Númenor, an earlier war against the Noldor which did not give them recovery time and against a not fully militarised Númenor might have simply resulted in an inconclusive struggle which wore down both sides. Quote:
The example of Tar-Palantír shows that it was, for the majority, "too late" for redemption even before the reign of Pharazôn.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#2 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
Posts: 153
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Ok then,zigur.i agree to you.
now,back to the topic.if ar-pharazon resist sauron and banish him to mordor,sauron could rebuild his troops in secrets,since the king will thought that sauron is defeated,he will not shows up anymore,while in reality sauron device another plan to weaken the numenorean.probably a surprise attack to umbar,and sauron impose much scarier image to his men,the former should take the numenorean by surprise,and the latter will make sauron army much more fearful to sauron thean to the numenorian.but the numenorian had ally.gil-galad and durin the third is still in middle earth,and they would prove to be hard to defeat.now,if this happen,then gil-galad wont be dead,no gollum,no iron hills or erebor,and the noldor would be still a very srong kingdom,unlike the waning elven sanctuary in the third age.
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Fly,you fools!-gandalf,the bridge of khazad dûm |
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#3 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
Posts: 153
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Btw guys,is there a thread about how durin bane enter moria,or about how gondor didnt know that minas morgul was taken?is so are they still active/not necroed?
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Fly,you fools!-gandalf,the bridge of khazad dûm |
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#4 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Quote:
The whole reason Ar-Pharazôn captured Sauron in the first place though was because he wanted to eliminate him as a rival for world domination, so why would he send Sauron back to Mordor where he could easily rebuild his power? Wouldn't that put everything back where it started? Maybe a faithful Pharazôn could have somehow restored communication with the Elves and in doing so arranged for Sauron to be transported to Aman to face the judgement of Manwë - now that's an interesting idea if I do say so myself. But I don't think Sauron would have permitted himself to be captured by faithful Númenóreans. Going to fallen Númenor was safe. If they'd still been allies of the Elves and the Valar I imagine he would never have come to Umbar and submitted. In that scenario the Valar would have had to deal with the Ring, though, and whether even one of the Powers could bring themselves to have it unmade. Quote:
Also I think no matter their amount of their success the Noldor would have waned in the Third Age because it was not in their nature to stay in Middle-earth. They would have faded in any event.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#5 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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But most likely, the Quest would have been completely different. No Nercomancer would be that Thrain would most likey never have been captured and imprisioned and even more likely that Gandalf would never have found him With no necromancer, why would he ever go to Dol Guldur? (Evne if we are talking about a scenario where Sauron is still alive; held captive on Aman and the Ring still exists (so theoretically, so do the Ringwraiths, all that would be at Dol Guldur would be at best, a Nazgul forever divorced from his master; probably not big enough for Ganadalf to decide to go.) Thrain would most likely have passed the map onto Thorin directly (along with the Dwarven ring, which in this scenario he probably still has) or equally likely, have tried to take back Erebor himself; far earlier in time than Thorin did. In either case, it would probably be a quest sans Gandalf (with Thrain never captured, Gandalf would have never met him, and with no map to give Thorin he never would have met him either.) and definitely without Bilbo. So you'd probably be looking at a quest that ultimately failed (Thrain would probably have had him and his party try and rush the dragon dwarf style, and gotten the whole company roasted for his trouble.) And if by some miracle Smaug's death ocurred more or less as it did in the real quest, the later events would have turned out a lot worse. With no Bilbo to try and soothe the situation with the Arkenstone the Dwarves,Men, Elves and Goblins, assuming the latter two even showed up (if thrain took a path that did not end up with them contacting the Golblins or Mirkwood elves and alterting them that there were Dwarves trying to take back Erebor, one or both might not have showed up. With no Gandalf, the Eagle DEFINITELY would not have). Would likely have slaugtered each other. A lack of Sauron would probably not have stopped Erebor from being FOUNDED, but the events resulting from his non-presence in the Third age would probably have resulted in there being no Dwarven kingdom of Erebor later (though in a world without the war of the ring, that might not have mattered much) |
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#6 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
Posts: 153
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Do sauron use mumakil in battle,is so,then sauron have a slight advantage against the numenorean.and it doesnt matter if sauron dont go back to mordor.he would fled to the east,far away from the numenorean.then,before either men or elves or dwarves know it,boom!sauron come from the east with huge number of men,trolls,and horses,then from the south the haradrim and mumakil come.in the east,sauron would be able to experiment much easily and without numenorean or noldor watch.he could make black uruk,uruk hai,and olog hai.
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Fly,you fools!-gandalf,the bridge of khazad dûm |
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
Posts: 153
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About the balrog,the dwarves would still find the balrog,but with the numenorean around,the dwarves would most likely seek help to the numenorean.if the numenor army could make saurons army routed without fighting,could they send there entire army to moria and ousted the balrog from moria?
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Fly,you fools!-gandalf,the bridge of khazad dûm |
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#8 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Quote:
The idea that Sauron could somehow flee to Middle-earth (again, why would the Númenóreans exile him back to his own lands?) and immediately, spontaneously restart his military operations is not supported in the text. In fact, the opposite was true - his armies weakened in his absence. Given that the Uruk-hai and the Olog-hai were not bred until the Third Age, we can hardly know for sure that Sauron would inevitably develop them in the Second under different circumstances. What do you mean by "black uruks"? As far as I'm aware that's just another name for "Uruk-hai." You also seem to think that the Mumakil are some kind of superweapon, but beyond their use at the Pelennor Fields where the Haradrim and their oliphaunts were still defeated and destroyed I see no evidence of that. Quote:
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#9 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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The Mumakil seem to have been about as useful as real-world war elephants: not very. Their advantage was that they frightened horses and so neutralised cavalry, but they proved almost impossible to persuade or goad to trample and crush formed infantry, and eventually were relegated to mobile but vulnerable archery platforms- but ones with an unpleasant tendency to go berserk and then indeed crush and trample everyone, friend and foe alike.
Hannibal brought elephants over the Alps- but they didn't do him a darn bit of good. They were useless (and most died) at Trebia, and Lake Trasimene and Cannae were won by conventional soldiery and canny generalship.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Quote:
The Balrog is likewise a similar thorny matter. It presumably WOULD still be unleashed; it's release was completely unrelated to anything Sauron did (though, in a world where theoretically there were more Dwarven rings available, it is possible that either Durin VI or one of his predecessors would have had one and it's aura of greed might have led to deep mining and Durin's Bane being released somewhat earlier) But even that might have required no higher intervention. A less damaged Eregion might have joined with the Dwarves and together been able to deal with it. Alterntively, a world where there was no Gandalf might mean a Moria that could NEVER be reclaimed, since there might be no power in ME capable of doing so. But you are right, everything is theoretical in those circumstances. |
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