The differences between Elves and Men

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Turin turambar definitely surpassed ordinary elves in term of strengh.he take-out glaurung alone(although he died too).

Fully agreed Turin was maybe the strongest man ever and would definitely be on pair with the Noldor princes.
First Age eldar weren't inhumanly strong physically(except for the ones who have seen the light of the trees and gained more spiritual power such as Fingolfin in wrath) the difference is that the Eldar were like a man very tall but with a very good muscle distribution over the body(strong but perfectly balanced). So men are less perfect and shorter(average), then they would appear broader so some would say stronger. In the case of Numenoreans the same happened for they were also blessed by the Valar and were many times said to be tall and strong but still if you read Tal-Elmar tale you will see that some second age men probably descend the House of Haleth were broader than Tal-Elmar(Numenorean descendant) but definitely not stronger.

Here are some quotes that made me interpret that way:

'' But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white...'' - This is a physical description of Beleg in comparison to the men that were following Túrin Turambar. But Beleg was known for his strength too so we can just understand that he's above average Eldar and also from average men, although the Noldor were in general a little larger in build.

In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe." The History of Middle-earth, vol. XI, The War of the Jewels: "Quendi and Eldar,"

"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves..."

“…and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.

Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. –Here Finrod was strong enough to burst his bonds to save Beren (one of the strongest men the tales tell and wasn't capable of escaping).

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. –Here Finrod was strong enough to burst his bonds to save Beren (one of the strongest men the tales tell and wasn't capable of escaping).

One of the most riveting moments in The Silmarillion for me. I've always seen this as being a feat of spirit or maybe "magic" rather than strength, but I'll admit that brutish muscle is a much simpler explanation. Put Turin or Fingolfin in the same situation and with the same wording, and I'd probably view it the same as you, so it may just be my preconception of Finrod.

Where is Beren described as especially strong? It might be implied by the Leap of Beren--anything else?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

One of the most riveting moments in The Silmarillion for me. I've always seen this as being a feat of spirit or maybe "magic" rather than strength, but I'll admit that brutish muscle is a much simpler explanation. Put Turin or Fingolfin in the same situation and with the same wording, and I'd probably view it the same as you, so it may just be my preconception of Finrod.

Where is Beren described as especially strong? It might be implied by the Leap of Beren--anything else?

Well this is a feat of both physical strength and spiritual. While physically Turin was a match for Fingolfin in my opinion he didn't have the spirit to be above someone that was taken to be a Vala himself.
The preconception about elves being less in build and strength than men is very common don't worry since in others "cultures" they really are, even for Tolkien in the beginning the elves were shorter and slimmer than men. Finrod although far from being the strongest of the princes he's still above even the Noldor average(in strength).
Beren was many times described as being especially strong in the Silmarillion, The Peoples of Middle Earth vol. XII and in the LOTR - Remember Boromir talking about the strength of Turin and Beren(both Edain) instead of talking about some great and tall Numenorean which he descent and probably had more information since both were from the first age.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Well this is a feat of both physical strength and spiritual. While physically Turin was a match for Fingolfin in my opinion he didn't have the spirit to be above someone that was taken to be a Vala himself.
The preconception about elves being less in build and strength than men is very common don't worry since in others "cultures" they really are, even for Tolkien in the beginning the elves were shorter and slimmer than men.

By "my preconception" I only meant mine of Finrod himself. (Not that I think of him as 110 lb. weakling either.)

As far as the general question of Elven physical strength relative to that of men goes, my casual opinion is that the former would tend to be greater than the latter, on average* but still within the scope of the recognizably "human"-- recognizable in a fable that is, if not in a scientific article.

There'd be heroic paragons and exceptions among both kindreds, of course.

*Even excepting the elderly, ill, and infirm among the mortals.

...although far from being the strongest of the princes he's still above even the Noldor average(in strength).

Citations needed?

Beren was many times described as being especially strong in the Silmarillion, The Peoples of Middle Earth vol. XII

Ah, I do see the footnote in "Of Dwarves and Men" in the latter now, thank you.

and in the LOTR - Remember Boromir talking about the strength of Turin and Beren(both Edain) instead of talking about some great and tall Numenorean which he descent and probably had more information since both were from the first age.

I think you must mean the narrator describing the wounding of Shelob:

"The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it."

That's a good catch. Thank you.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Citations needed?

Finrod was never mentioned as a warrior like Fingolfin, Fingon,or Maedhros and all of them have descriptions of their mighty while Finrod only about how wise he was.
In my pinion if Fingon fought the wolf instead the history would have been different.

[tom the eldest]

I think that among the elves there are also differences.the noldor are the one that has the most crafting skill,and they are very thirsty of knowledge.this is why they can made the palatir,silmaril,and the ring of power with the aid of annatar,and that why morgoth and sauron both target them.the vanyar have less crafting skill i think,but they are the most loyal to the valar.the teleri,meh they are average quality.the elves also has different taste of weapon.the noldor likes sword and shield,the teleri like bow and arrow,and the vanyar like spear.there are also hierarchy in the three house of elves right?


ADD:the vanyar skill is in poetry,and manwe and varda love them because of this.the teleri like building ships,but they stil pretty much average joe for me.