The differences between Elves and Men

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Not really since Tolkien change his mind later.

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

Only about their height the rest he probably maintained.

The sentence you came up with was written around - 1937.

They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’ - around 1968.

See the difference now? I hope I could help you.

[tom the eldest]

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

I'm not saying Turin wasn't awesome but that was definitely not a direct confrontation since he cheap-shot the dragon with the mightiest sword ever.

[tom the eldest]

No,im not directing it at you,im just adding some information that i miss

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

You are not wrong in my opinion Lotrelf, since to my mind this description is very sweeping and very general [Men versus Elves] and I think it means to very generally ward off the idea of a notable difference in height, according to modern conceptions [see below].

Also, Arathorn has noted that this text appears in the Quenta Silmarillion of the later 1930s -- and it does, but it was also never revised by JRRT himself much later...

... the description occurs in Quenta Silmarillion section 85, and in the 1950s [early 1950s] Tolkien altered the following sentence within this same section: 'Only in the realm of Doriath...' for example, and made another change in wording elsewhere in section 85. And in the later 1950s Tolkien again seemingly looks at this section and brackets in pencil three passages concerning the 'mortality' of the Elves...

... again these revised passages and later bracketing [suggesting further revision at least], made at different times, both appear in section 85, but the passage you quoted about height is left alone and is employed by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 Silmarillion. One could argue that Tolkien 'missed' this like height description in section 85, and hadn't truly updated the whole section, or that he hadn't revised it because he hadn't revised it 'yet'...

... but I think it's something that doesn't need correction in any case, and I think it's because...

... Tolkien knows he is working against a modern or Victorian conception of 'Elves' as fairies who can hide behind flower petals, and given that, of 'like height' has plenty of room for later, more specific details.

I would even suggest that this passage is the result of evolution from the very early comparison: 'Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now;...' From The Book of Lost Tales, which idea changed, but even in the 1960s and early 1970s Tolkien still knows his readers are going to associate, or at least might naturally associate, 'modern ideas' when they encounter the word Elves.

I note Tolkien's description that the fairies were far greater, to get them closer to Men, and that Men were smaller than 'now', in other words, we are looking at an alteration from both sides, so to speak, but a notable one on the Elvish side, to get the Elves closer in stature to Men -- even though Men are generally larger than Elves according to certain other texts from this same [generally speaking] 'early' phase, including a notable comparison to the Elves being compared to mannish children!

Leaving aside the Cottage of Lost Play here, of course Tolkien's Elves went [externally speaking] from, if not as small as Victorian fairies, from seemingly somewhat small in The Book of Lost Tales to rather tall according to later ideas, post-Lord the Rings, but even in The Lord of the Rings Appendices Tolkien can be seen 'warding off' modern notions connected with the term Elves [his comment about wings for instance]...

... and I think this passage you quoted still has some of that behind it. In my opinion it's not meant to be precise, but to aid in letting the reader know that we are not here dealing with the Elves of popular fancy.

[mhagain]

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):

There are certain things in this world that have to be accepted as 'facts'. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.

So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

[cellurdur]

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

That's pretty much everything in physical terms. Nice post!!!

But don't forget you are talking about the Eldar, Silvan elves tend to be shorter and weaker.
Agreed the average Numenoreans and some Hadoreans could reach even the Eldar Noldor strength.
The Noldor were also somewhat larger than the Teleri.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

What about the silvan,teleri and vanyar?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

What about the silvan,teleri and vanyar?

Just look at my last comment about what the said. and Sindar=Teleri.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):



So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

Isnt galion get drunk because the wine of dorwinion is so strong?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Isnt galion get drunk because the wine of dorwinion is so strong?

Yes and poison was made by an elf, so what Tolkien was trying to say is that things that were made by humans such as their wines and poisons weren't capable of affecting the elves in the same way.

[arathorn]

Actually the Sindar liked long-bows and axes.
The Silvan liked short-bows and long-knives.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Actually the Sindar liked long-bows and axes.
The Silvan liked short-bows and long-knives.

Huh,they did?but they stil of telerinian descent right?i guess they get more diverse in selection of weapons.but yeah,the three main elves kind like spear,bow or sword and shield.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Yes and poison was made by an elf, so what Tolkien was trying to say is that things that were made by humans such as their wines and poisons weren't capable of affecting the elves in the same way.

Are you quite sure that Tolkien actually said that? I can get very drunk on incredibly strong wine too, but that doesn''t give me immunity to weaker wines.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Huh,they did?but they stil of telerinian descent right?i guess they get more diverse in selection of weapons.but yeah,the three main elves kind like spear,bow or sword and shield.

The Silvan were mostly descended from the Nandor, who were mostly of Telerin origin but had picked up some Avari on the way to Beleriand (per the note CT cites in his commentary on GA38).

What's interesting about the Avari is that according to Quendi and Eldar they were evenly divided between the Second and Third clans, so the seemingly common assumption that all Avari were Teleri in origin doesn't hold true. A further note in Quendi and Eldar states:

The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar

With the Tatyar being, of course, the Second Clan, and these Avari therefore actually being kin to the Noldor.

What all of this establishes is that some of the Silvan Elves were very probably Tatyar in origin, descended from those who the Nandor picked up before they entered Beleriand and who were likely to have been those first who the Eldar met (and note that Tolkien is careful to say "Eldar", not "Noldor" here, so this could just as easily be Thingol's folk).

[Galin]

I think the issue with the Avari, and even the true meaning of the term Eldar, depends upon which citation one employs.

Not unlike the issue of Eldarin height, although I already know what I'm going to get if I make the seemingly impossible claim that maybe not every 'late' description Tolkien wrote about Eldarin height was meant to be fused into one concept. Ahem.



It's once again sifting among [mostly] draft texts, with certain ideas arguably revised, others made uncertain by a 'lack' of mention perhaps, still others written years after something else, made all somewhat nice and tidy by Christopher Tolkien, for us, but who knows what Tolkien had in front of him when he was creating a 'new' text years after he had written something related...

... I put author-published description in a strong postion. We are looking for a measure of certainty it seems, at least often enough [I don't want to be certain of all things, myself, and like plenty of the misty elements], and despite even Tolkien's penchant for change, which arose even with respect to already published text [for example publishing that Galadriel's father was named Finrod, then (second edition) changing it to Finarfin], author-published is as 'certain' as we can get in my opinion... with even Tolkien illustrating that he is revising a different animal, if so.


Anyway there is text in Of Dwarves And Men which suggests that the idea of Avari in Beleriand was rejected; and late text in which the Tawarwaith, or Silvan Elves, of Mirkwood are simply noted as Telerin Elves in origin, hardly to be distinguished from Avari.

But that seems to distinguish them to the reader! And it's later description than Quendi and Eldar, and again, the Avari of Beleriand seem abandoned according to Of Dwarves And Men... sooo, what of Avari in the Anduin Vale however? Abandoned idea or back to Quendi And Eldar for that much? In any case the Avari are not mentioned outside of the remark I referred to, so read it as is, and arguably there's no real reason to think any Avari, Tatyarin or Nelyarin, had mixed in by Frodo's day.

Or is there? Not that I recall. Again if we toss in a text made years before, then we have the concept rather certainly. But that's a different matter... again keeping in mind that that text has the Avari in Beleriand!

And then there's the tantalizing notion [published by Tolkien] that the Silvan Elves of Lorien sail Over Sea. Hmm, would Avari sail? Could they sail? Was it only the Silvan Elves of Telerin origin that sailed, although that is never stated in the published account itself... it's just implied that the Silvan Elves in general could sail Over Sea if desired.

Mix and match. Hey it's not like I don't do it too, or think it's wrongheaded in every case. Tolkien, after all, need not be confined to tell his full 'tale', or explain every matter fully, within each and every text, for the other side of the coin here.

I'm just sayin'.... maybe a little less certainty with respect to some of these height and strength issues?

Or nah. What fun is that

And I won't even go into the definition of Eldar... although one of these passages is Tolkien-published. Huzzah.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Are you quite sure that Tolkien actually said that? I can get very drunk on incredibly strong wine too, but that doesn''t give me immunity to weaker wines.

I said that didn't affect them in the same way, not that doesn't affect them.
They can get drunk with men's wines but it takes more time.