The differences between Elves and Men

[arathorn]

I think one of the hardest things ever in Tolkien's work is about who is and who is not an Eldar. And why are the avari weaker than the Edar if they also Telerin in origin. And I also think the Nandor elves seemed to be less powerful than the Sindar but some would say they are exactly the same.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by arathorn

I think one of the hardest things ever in Tolkien's work is about who is and who is not an Eldar.

Not if you take what Tolkien himself published as the answer, and put the problematic rest at the doorstep. Aha! A confident answer based upon my own ideas about canonical status!



Anyway the correct answer is: Eldar at first referred to all Elves, but then came to refer to those Elves who passed Over Sea during the Great March, plus the Sindar only!

The Silmarillion concept is 'wrong'. Debate is pointless. You will be assimilated, and so on. This post is something like ironic. But doesn't it just figure that I really think that 'should' be the answer, even still.

Oh well

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

Not if you take what Tolkien himself published as the answer, and put the problematic rest at the doorstep. Aha! A confident answer based upon my own ideas about canonical status!



Anyway the correct answer is: Eldar at first referred to all Elves, but then came to refer to those Elves who passed Over Sea during the Great March, plus the Sindar only!

The Silmarillion concept is 'wrong'. Debate is pointless. You will be assimilated, and so on. This post is something like ironic. But doesn't it just figure that I really think that 'should' be the answer, even still.

Oh well

I always though in the same way you do.
So the Nandor aren't considered Eldar... That explains a lot.

[arathorn]

Exactly Galin for you to be write there must be to many possibilities:
1- Interpret the sentence in another possible way, so changing his mind.
2- It's only a "change" if it was written after 1968 and we don't know when it was.(another reason for not to trust the Authors)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by arathorn

I always though in the same way you do.
So the Nandor aren't considered Eldar... That explains a lot.

We agree? Well it had to happen sometime

Yes The Lord of the Rings not only decribes the Eldar [as basically 'West-elves'] in Appendix F, the translation section, but in the language section describes the Silvan tongues as not-Eldarin [although not Eldarin doesn't necessarily mean Avarin].

And I know there are those who will correctly tell me that Tolkien was rushed in the early 1950s, with the Appendices and so on, but heck he did revise the thing in the 1960s too.

And even if so, I say that even JRRT has to deal with what he publishes about the Subcreated World, despite that sometimes the way he dealt with it was to revise it!

Now, about 'High Elves'... :runs:

[arathorn]

[QUOTE=Galin;691067]We agree? Well it had to happen sometime

I think the only things we don't agree is about the Eldar height and maybe one aspect of their physical appearance since you may think they are slimmer than men.

[Galin]

But you might only disagree with what you think I may mean about slimness...

... so I'm not sure I agree that we necessarily disagree about that

Although granted you said maybe.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but in the language section describes the Silvan tongues as not-Eldarin [although not Eldarin doesn't necessarily mean Avarin]

In 'Quendi and Eldar' (1959-60) Nandorin (and thus its derivatives Ossiriandic and Silvan) is expressly stated to be of Lindarin/Telerin origin, and therefore Eldarin.

This had been a question mark ca. 1936, it seems, since in the 'Lhammas' (B-version) the tongue of the 'Danians' was "like that of Doriath, but not the same" (amended from the A-text in which it was wholly unlike the speech of the Eldar and Beleriandic Ilkorins). But then in 'Lammasethen' Danian appears as a 'middle Quendian', neither Eldarin nor 'Lemberin'/Avarin (however, Thingol's folk are there promoted to 'Eldar').



The footnote to Appendix F is interesting. It doesn't appear in the first draft of that Appendix, written before the Great Linguistic Upheaval ca. 1951-52. From that time we find in the Grey Annals, entry VY 1350, that the Nandor (there so named for the first time) were explicitly Teleri, and so their language was Eldarin.

The App F draft itself alters the Lammasethen conception and distinguishes between Eldarin, Lemberin and Avarin tongues, the Lembi or 'lingerers' at that time incorporating both the Sindar and the Danians/Nandor; the "many secret tongues" of the Avari are said not to come into the LR. At this time of course Lemberin of Doriath and the Vales of Anduin was of course not Sindarin, which didn't yet exist (or more accurately, the language existed but was still called Noldorin and came from Valinor).

But App F as published appears on the face of it to return to the old conception, West-elves of Valinor and Avarin East-elves! (except for the 'promotion' of the Sindar). Indeed, text F4 of the appendix, written after the GLU with Sindarin now ensconced as the native tongue of Beleriand, says in so many words that the native peoples of Lorien and Mirkwood, despite their Sindarin nobility, were Avari: "many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills....Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter notrhing appears in this book."