Why did Frodo feel he had to leave Middle Earth at the of ROTK?

[Pervinca Took]

A question occurred to me today and, having done a quick search, I think this is the best thread in which to ask it. To requote Squatter:

'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) - not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over the Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died.

"If that could be done." Much has been said in this thread about the reconnection with the light. The light within Frodo is not mentioned again after Cirith Ungol, where Sam fancies he sees a light glowing, unless it is just a trick of his tears. The evil and horror of the Ring became so great and terrible that it would have extinguished the light, perhaps, just as the Phial of Galadriel had no power within the Sammath Naur itself. Did the light within Frodo revive after the Ring was destroyed, I have often wondered?

However, the *actual* question with which I came to this thread is the title of this post:

Part of Frodo''s sufferings post-quest were the anniversary illnesses. But is to sail West to sail out of Time, or have I misinterpreted the meaning of passing out of Time? (Since I seem to remember a Letter mentioning that the healing of Aman was still "within Time"?) What I mean is: would there even be an October the 6th or a 13th of March in Tol Eressea or Valinor? Would he be protected from these bouts of illness by being outside Time? I know that elvish settlements even in Middle-earth have a timeless aura to them, but they still used calendars, I believe? What is the case beyond the Sea? Are there still seasons and years? * And if not, would this alone prevent the return of illnesses triggered by a date?

* I suppose there must be ... I seem to recall the expression "The Years Of The Trees."

[tom the eldest]

maybe it was because the wound he received from the witch king and he can never fully heal in ME?

[Pervinca Took]

That partly answers the thread's question, but not the one I have just asked.

[tom the eldest]

about the time thing,maybe that the cycle of frodo's anniversary illness is stopped in aman.its like the.........i know nothing.im sorry

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

But is to sail West to sail out of Time, or have I misinterpreted the meaning of passing out of Time? (Since I seem to remember a Letter mentioning that the healing of Aman was still "within Time"?) What I mean is: would there even be an October the 6th or a 13th of March in Tol Eressea or Valinor? Would he be protected from these bouts of illness by being outside Time? I know that elvish settlements even in Middle-earth have a timeless aura to them, but they still used calendars, I believe? What is the case beyond the Sea? Are there still seasons and years? * And if not, would this alone prevent the return of illnesses triggered by a date?

A very interesting question. My take on it is that since Frodo in Eressëa would not be "outside" time to the point that he would become immortal like the Elves, ie his body still would be subject to physical death, he would also potentially have still been afflicted by his past wounds. Tolkien seems, in the quote, to have left the question with ambiguity. Maybe the Undying Lands would have provided Frodo spiritual healing without question, but the physical effects were more permanent.

[Pervinca Took]

Tom, it doesn't matter! I don't know the answer either!

The significance of the date-triggers versus timelessness in Valinor only occurred to me today, but my personal feeling is that yes, the wounds would have troubled him, but there would have been help and healing there, and, perhaps most importantly, hope.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No, Aman incl. Valinor and Eressea remain within Time. All of Arda is within Time, and none "pass beyond thought and time" or enter "the Timeless Halls" save in death. The first reckoning of Time was made in Valinor based on the cycles of the Trees.

Based on Tolkien's essay 'Aman" in Morgoth's Ring, I would venture that Frodo and Bilbo (and Sam and Gimli) perforce dwelt in Eressea. This is not to say that they couldn't visit Valinor, but it would appear that a mortal couldn't endure the fully Undying Land for an extended period. Eressea was a sort of 'halfway house,' partaking somewhat of Middle-earth, and this is presumably why most of the returned Exiles and Sindar chose to live there.

In any event, Bilbo and Frodo (and Sam) would eventually die and pass out of Time "to the fate of Men beyond the world".

[Pervinca Took]

Thanks for the clarification. Does it actually say that mortals could visit Valinor, and stay there for a short time? I have a gut feeling that a sojourn in Valinor itself, however brief that might be, would be necessary for full healing. Perhaps the Ringbearers might choose to go there when ready to die. (All conjecture, of course).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Thanks for the clarification. Does it actually say that mortals could visit Valinor, and stay there for a short time? I have a gut feeling that a sojourn in Valinor itself, however brief that might be, would be necessary for full healing. Perhaps the Ringbearers might choose to go there when ready to die. (All conjecture, of course).

Since Gandalf was a Maia of Irmo, my guess would be that they might go to Lorien for a little while which was probably the place to deal with bad dreams and memories, but that Eressea might be the most congenial location for most of their soujourn where there would be mainly folk who knew Middle Earth and was perhaps not as high falutin' as Valinor.

I don't think the effects of Frodo's injuries can be underestimated. Sometimes it is having to keep on going that keeps you going. My mother faced her terminal cancer with great courage and the only time she broke down was when she was briefly in remission and not having treatment. She coped so well with facing death it waa awful to see her struggling with life almost, yet when her symptoms returned she coped with surgeries, more chemo, infections stoically. To return to Middle Earth, the only example I can think of of a similar wound (other than Aredhel's fatal one) is Celebrían. Even she, with her great ancestry and knowing that leaving might well mean, definitively parting from her children, can not bear to remain.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think the effects of Frodo's injuries can be underestimated. Sometimes it is having to keep on going that keeps you going. My mother faced her terminal cancer with great courage and the only time she broke down was when she was briefly in remission and not having treatment. She coped so well with facing death it waa awful to see her struggling with life almost, yet when her symptoms returned she coped with surgeries, more chemo, infections stoically. To return to Middle Earth, the only example I can think of of a similar wound (other than Aredhel's fatal one) is Celebrían. Even she, with her great ancestry and knowing that leaving might well mean, definitively parting from her children, can not bear to remain.

Very insightful, Mith. Of course Melian, too, after the death of Thingol, had had enough of Middle-earth and somehow made her way back to Aman, specifically to Lórien. She also left her kin and people behind.

I find it interesting to look at Frodo and Gandalf as opposites in the effect that the trials and wounds, physical and spiritual, of both, ran different courses after the destruction of the Ring and the fall of Sauron.

Gandalf had been bearing a great burden ever since his arrival in Middle-earth: how to bring about Sauron's permanent defeat. The chapter on the Istari in Unfinished Tales describes his ordeal by saying Gandalf "suffered greatly, and was slain". When the War of the Ring was over, Frodo made the remark:

'Pippin, didn't you say that Gandalf was less close than of old? He was weary of his labours then, I think. Now he is recovering.'

ROTK

Frodo is also relieved of his crushing weight when the Ring is gone; yet his spiritual and physical discomfort grows until he feels he must leave Middle-earth to escape it. I think a lot of that really is due to his sense of ultimate failure regarding the Ring: that he had not himself thrown it into the Fire, and still in some level of his mind, wanted it back. In many cases, health follows will: a good outlook and positive emotions can hold physical pain at bay, or at least lessen it. Frodo did not have the benefit of that himself.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Part of Frodo''s sufferings post-quest were the anniversary illnesses.

It's a tangent, but your post made me think about the "anniversary illnesses" and what a strange conceit they are in the first place. Is this a genuine phenomenon in the real world? (I know I usually feel pretty queasy every year around my birthday... ) Or is Tolkien making a literary allusion? Or is it just Tolkien being Tolkien?

(Would Frodo's illnesses adjust for leap days? Official changes in the Shire Reckoning? Passing over the International Date Line?)

[Pervinca Took]

It's something I've wondered, too. I know that the time of year a trauma or difficult event occurred can cause psychological suffering when it comes around again, but a physical recurrence of pain upon the actual anniversary date? I don't think I've heard of this. In the "real" world, some wounds still ache anyway after "healing" ... perhaps they might psychosomatically do so on a significant date, as well as on others?

Perhaps it was Tolkien's invention, since at one point it was to be the place of the wounding that proved the trigger, not the date, but he changed this. (I think that's in one of the HOME books about the development of the story of the LOTR). Since the Morgul-wound was supernatural/demonic in nature, it wouldn't have to be governed by real world science/psychology.

One thing that does connect to actual experiences reported by soldiers, though, is the continuance of pain in a severed limb - the arm or leg still hurts even though it is no longer there. Again in the early drafts, Frodo said he felt pain in the finger that had gone, at the same time as the shoulder-pain returned, but this did not survive in the final draft. Maybe Tolkien made a conscious choice to connect the physical suffering to the chosen laws of the weapons/supernatural injuries he had subcreated, rather than to wounds in the "real" world?

It slightly puzzles me why the bite of Shelob would continue to cause trouble ... I suppose it's to do with the darkness of Ungoliant (who poisoned or at least devoured the Two Trees), of whom Shelob is the last child, and the fact that not many people who suffered a bite from Shelob lived long enough afterwards to become case studies or provide comparison/estimated prognoses for the condition.

I really must read the copy of "Tolkien And The First World War" that I purchased so many years ago. Not that I''ll necessarily get an answer there ... but I want to read it anyway.

Perhaps there are literary precedents? Was Arthur's wound of this nature?

[Lotrelf]

I have a question. Why does professor use the word "Arda unmarred" for the Undying Lands while it was marred by Morgoth and Ungoliant?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I have a question. Why does professor use the word "Arda unmarred" for the Undying Lands while it was marred by Morgoth and Ungoliant?

Although Ungoliant did kill the Trees, the land of Aman itself was not harmed, corrupted, or affected by Melkor, as he had done in Middle-earth. Aman was the design of the Valar indeed "unmarred" from that viewpoint.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Although Ungoliant did kill the Trees, the land of Aman itself was not harmed, corrupted, or affected by Melkor, as he had done in Middle-earth. Aman was the design of the Valar indeed "unmarred" from that viewpoint.

Does only the land matter? Trees were killed/destroyed. There was darkness all around, if I remember that correctly. It's like saying poisonous air is not in the land so those who live on the land do not need to fear it, while the birds etc. are in greater danger. It 's a bad analogy, but for now I can't think of something better!

[radagastly]

Just as Sauron put a part of his substance into the Ring in later years, so Morgoth tried to do with all the substance of Arda. In Sauron's case, this gave the Ring a will of its own, but with Morgoth, this corrupted Arda at its core level, genetically if you want to look at it that way. Aman was not "marred" in this fashion. It was uncorrupted by Morgoth's influence. It was not subject to the concept of original sin (to use a Christian term).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Does only the land matter? Trees were killed/destroyed. There was darkness all around, if I remember that correctly. It's like saying poisonous air is not in the land so those who live on the land do not need to fear it, while the birds etc. are in greater danger. It 's a bad analogy, but for now I can't think of something better!

The darkness wasn't permanent, though. It left no lasting damage in the Blessed Realm. I also like radagastly's take, which seems in a more ethereal sense along the lines of where I was aiming.